[Intro Music]

00:00:08:11 – 00:01:02:25
Hannah
Welcome to the Diverse Ed podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: everyone is celebrated, in every classroom, in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies the stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series one of the Diverse Ed podcast we have ten episodes. In each episode our co-hosts Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, share the challenges they’ve had to navigate on their journey, and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

00:01:05:18 – 00:01:17:07
Nick
Hello and welcome to The Diverse Ed Podcast. My name is Nick Kitchener-Bentley and I’m a lead practitioner and drama / inclusion teacher at Sarah Bonnell School. I’m also on the steering group for LGBT ed.

00:01:17:27 – 00:01:27:28
Yamina
And I’m Yamina Bibi. I’m an assistant head teacher, also at Sarah Bonnell school. I’m also a network leader for Women Ed in London. In this episode, we’ll be talking to Diana from the sex chapter.

00:01:29:10 – 00:01:42:04
Nick
Okay. So thanks for joining us, Diana. It’s really great to have you here. One of the things we like to do, just at the start is to get people joining us to introduce themselves to the audience in one sentence. So do you think you’ll be able to do that for us? Please?

00:01:42:13 – 00:01:51:27
Diana
In one sentence, I am Diana Osagie. I am a courageous leader, and I spend my time creating courageous leaders.

00:01:52:22 – 00:02:01:17
Yamina
I love that because I am one of those, so thank you, Diana. And what inspired you to write your contribution to Diverse Educators: A Manifesto?

00:02:01:24 – 00:06:21:07
Diana
It’s one of those things where you say the sex chapter, I didn’t write about sex. Okay? So let’s just, let’s clarify before people and my mother hears this and gets the wrong idea, and says ‘Diana what have you been doing with your life?’ Okay. I wanted to write about females and women in leadership, because I also run the Academy of Women’s Leadership and there is a gap that has to be addressed and that gap is the gap between the competence that a woman has for leadership. Her CV says she has a M.A. She has an NPQH. She has accounting qualifications and she has HR qualifications. She has 20-years’ experience in the sector. So her CV says competence. But her heart often says lack of confidence. So she will look at her CV and say, That is me, but when a job comes along and she wants to apply, she will wait until she fits 99.8% of the person spec and then not apply because it wasn’t 100% because the confidence doesn’t match the competence. There’s a gap between those two things and so, on the Academy and for the book, I wanted to explain why that gap exists and what we should do as society, as leaders, as educational people and those who are in the profession to close that gap. Because if we don’t, then we are losing strategic advantage and nobody, nobody says, I want my organisation to have the least amount of advantage as possible. No one says that. So when you don’t positively, explicitly and intentionally nurture, develop, pursue talent in all its forms, be it from the global majority community, from the LGBTQ community, from the women committee, wherever it is found, if you don’t explicitly pursue it, then you are losing advantage, head over fist in your organisation. And what happens is, where women find this organisation realises the advances that I bring, I will go there. You will find expertise just walking out of your door. You will have your exit interviews in which they may say something, but more likely they’ll be polite and say, oh no, it was a pleasure working for you, but it’s time for me to move to pastures new. She may not even have the vocabulary to express what it is that made me leave. She won’t actually realise what it is that made me leave. But she knew that I had to seek somewhere else that would nurture the greatness in me. And so when we on the Academy, we teach about women closing that gap. And in the chapter that I wrote, I wanted organisations who will read it to understand the gap is there, the gap is real, but the gap is easily closed. But you have to be intentional. And if you’re not intentional, if you are blasé or you add a bit on to your programs or you do something about Women’s Day, we have International Women’s Day, all get the flags out and we all wear something that represents that and then that we got back to normal. She puts air quotes up. Then your organisation is at a disadvantage. It truly is. So you must pursue leadership in all its forms around your leadership tables. It doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense to exclude a group of people from the leadership table. That actually doesn’t make business sense, let alone moral sense. So if you’re not morally minded, but you are business minded, it makes sense for you to include everyone around the table. So that’s why I wrote my chapter. But it’s not about sex, Mom. It is not about sex. I promise.

00:06:22:05 – 00:06:55:12
Nick
Diana, what an absolutely incredible response. I absolutely loved that. I mean, there is so much there that we could unpack and talk about. So, yeah, just thank you. Just absolutely brilliant. And I love that little disclaimer at the end there too. We were really interested, Yamina and I, about the overall chapter as well. So the other contributions of people who wrote about sex in the chapter, including Yamina who wrote in this chapter aswell. I was just really interested if you could maybe tell us about some of the different themes that the whole chapter team explored as part of this.

00:06:56:13 – 00:10:51:11
Diana
So we were looking at gender and how you in your organisation, how you look at that agenda with unbiased eyes. And again, we are asking people to do a very mature thing to think and to operate differently to how you have been trained or how you grew up, or what might be counter to your natural culture. And actually, that is why the book is, it’s special, because when you read something and again and again and you go back and underline and you highlight and you annotate then it has a chance of sinking in, then it has a chance of actually adapting your practice. So we looked at gender, we looked at women, we looked at, you know, all sorts of of differences. And it is about that. We looked at differences. But with the lens of difference is good, difference is powerful, difference brings advantage. And it doesn’t make sense to cut off your own advantage in your own organisation. No leader gets up and says, ‘I’m going to do that to my organisation.’ And so I think each chapter was curated carefully to represent, listen, you can’t do everything we know that. But there are things that you can do better. There are things that you can do very well, and there are some things that you just need to start thinking about because you haven’t even begun that part of your journey. You need to start planning, not doing, just start planning conversations and then planning actions and then planning strategies. So we’re hopeful that the book will give people a toolkit of things to think about, things to plan for, and things to do, you know. And when you bring it all together, I mean, it is a tome. It is a big book. So it’s not meant for bedtime reading, you know, from one end to the other. But it is meant for you to share with your senior teams, to share with your leaders, to share with people who have influence and authority within your organisation. As with everybody else, of course. But let people who have influence and authority have this window that opens their thinking. Good leaders, great leaders are deep, intentional thinkers. And this book challenges thinking, assures you in other areas of your thinking where you’re on the right track, it will make you think, no, that’s not right and that’s good. I like a debate, a bit of healthy, passionate debate. Because when you have a healthy, passionate debate, you have innovation and from innovation, you get new things being born and being birthed in your organisation. So if it challenges you and makes you think, I don’t agree, good, get in touch. Get in touch. If you don’t agree. If it makes you think, oh, my goodness, I’ve been waiting for this, fantastic. Get in touch. It’s a very, very special piece of work. But it is in the right time. This is the age of this piece of work, it’s the right time for organisations to pivot and to take this seriously. But it is a marathon. This is not about you swapping, changing tonight. It’s a marathon. And this book will guide you through the marathon.

00:10:51:26 – 00:11:15:21
Yamina
I love that, that is a marathon. I think sometimes as leaders, we can see something, we see, oh, that’s brilliant. Okay, let’s just do it. And we don’t plan. And that planning is so key from what you’re saying, Diana. And thinking about that then, you’ve kind of touched upon it already. But what would you say are some of the challenges for people with this protected characteristic of sex, let’s say biological sex for my family as well, that the team really wanted to address in the book.

00:11:17:09 – 00:14:16:25
Diana
When I’m thinking about biological sex that comes with baggage. So a woman will bring to the table her experience, her assets, her quality, her skills. But she will also bring to the table her cultural burdens of what it means to be a woman in her culture. She’ll also bring to the table other things, such as she might be looking after elderly parents. She may well be a wife or a partner and have children or have grandchildren or have nieces and nephews and have these other, I call them burdens because that’s how people in the organisation see them. They’re not burdens, they are just a part of her life, but she may well bring to you the potential to have four pregnancies while she’s working for you. If you as a leader are not trained, I do mean this sincerely, you are not trained to think and to see her as an asset, you will see her as a burden. You’ll see it as a difficulty. And as a complication. And it’s easier to employ a white old male, simple as that. And that’s just the reality of it. So when you see her application on the desk and you are shortlisting or whatever and you have it all lined out and you look at her, and you have to fight your internal biases, literally fight. And I’ve done this when I’m shortlisting for my organisation, I’m trying to build a new piece of leadership in my organisation. I am fighting internal biases that say to me, Diana, that represents a complication. Oh, I wonder what that means. And I’m looking at her with a harder lens, with a sharper lens than I would look at somebody who represents simplicity. And that is inherently unfair. We know. But also, what am I doing? I’m potentially cutting off my own advantage because I can’t get over myself. So when the book highlights in a stark but gentle, intellectual but friendly way, and I hope people get that from the book that it was written. Not at you, but for you. From us, with love. I wrote my chapter with love, sincerity and honesty. But I didn’t want people to take away oh I’ve just been shouted at by Diana Osagie, which can be a scary experience. I want people to take away from that, I’ve just had a light shine upon some areas of my thinking. It’s a gentle light, but it’s light nevertheless.

00:14:16:25 – 00:15:24:19
Nick
It’s an amazing light because literally your chapter is just fantastic. Yamina and I were saying earlier about how impressive it was and how much you took from it. And when you’re speaking there, it’s moving, it’s genuinely moving to hear you talk about these things. And it’s so, so important. So thank you. And then what you were talking there about the internal biases as well, and I think is a really important topic that I wanted to touch on because you spoke about it in your key takeaways and I would love you to just expand on these a little bit more and just say why they’re so important. I’m going to read them. I’m going to try and read them quickly because I want to hear more from you and less from me. Limiting beliefs about yourself that make you feel like you cannot do something because something is inherently wrong with you. This is also true if you examine the beliefs you hold about others. Do you have limiting beliefs about others that are inherent in the way that you think, limiting beliefs about the world that make you think that you cannot do something because no one will let you, limiting beliefs about life that make you feel like you cannot do something because it is difficult. Is it just too complicated to be an ally to someone whose pathway is not as straight is yours? I mean, it’s brilliant, but can you tell us more about it?

00:15:24:19 – 00:22:05:22
Diana
When I think about that, if I get personal and become vulnerable in your hands. Let me give you an example where I’m ashamed of it, but it helped me to grow. When I was newly appointed as head, I needed to appoint a new teacher for ICT I think. I had a range of people come and in those days recruiting wasn’t difficult, right. So, you know, I had a good field, let’s put it that way. And I always insist that I see people teach in a class because I knew that that’s what I want you to do. Right? So I want to see, I want to see the practice. And a gentleman came in and he was big, you know, he was it was a big fella. He must have been 25 stone. He was a big guy. And as he was teaching, he’s going around the classroom, delivering a good lesson, my mind wasn’t even on the lesson, this is where I’m ashamed of myself, if you like, because my limiting belief was how will he deal with my year 11s who will take him apart, you know, with their comments about his size. And as he was going around doing the lesson, he was sweating profusely. You know, it was obviously a physical strain for him. So he was wiping his brow, doing the lesson, sweating through his shirt. This was a 20-minute lesson. So I thought, how is he going to get through the day? How is he going to get through the year? He’s going to be off, I just went down this track. In my mind. He’s going to be off sick. The kids are going to think it’s hilarious. They’re going to make fun of him. I’m going to have loads of referrals and exclusions. So I am plotting this negative path with this gentleman who was teaching a good lesson. Why? Because my beliefs limited me as to what he could do. Totally. Totally. So I missed potential advantage. He might have been the best thing since sliced bread. I will never know. Why? Because Diana didn’t get over her own bias. Yeah. So my bias about the world was people who look like that can’t do the job I want them to do. That is inherently wrong. Wrong. But it was innate. It was deep in me. I didn’t even have the vocabulary to describe it as a bias. We’re talking ten or 15 years, 15 years ago now. I just knew that’s how I felt. So I wrote him off completely. Didn’t take him to the second day. Wrote him off. It’s now I’m older and wiser that I understand how my limiting beliefs cut off my own advantage. So let me go back now, to an example, for a woman, I know what I can do. I know it. I’ve seen it. I’m convinced of it. I know the effect I have on people’s lives. The other day, someone said to me, would you become the strategic business person and bring the strategic business ideas to this organisation? So I thought, yes, I can do that. Then the voice came, oh, I’m not really a business person. I’m a, I’m an educationalist, I’m not really that. I’ve got no business qualifications whatsoever. I’m limiting myself because business people have business degrees in my mind, an MBA and all these things. So immediately I could hear that voice trying to rise. Immediately, I have to not just think it away, but speak it away literally. I said to myself out loud leave me alone. I am more than capable of this. You have to tell yourself other stories, your beliefs that you have about your self, about what people like you can do, what people who look like you, who sound like you do or don’t do. You have to take those stories out of your mind and replace them with other stories. Sometimes our stories will serve a purpose in our lives. They keep us safe. Oh, okay. So people like me don’t really stretch out and do that. I will stay here and stay as deputy. For example, I don’t want to become the head and I have a story around that that keeps me safe rather than the story could have many, many, many endings. I’m going to explore headship. I’ll do it for five years and if I’m crap at it I’ll leave, you know, what’s the difference, I’ll leave, I don’t have to stay there. But what if I’m fantastic at it? What if I’m brilliant at it? What if I am the next best thing since sliced bread when it comes to headship? What if? Let me explore that story rather than this one that I keep and it limits my greatness and we think greatness is reserved for people like Michelle Obama or Nelson Mandela or whomever you admire. No, they were all born babies just like you. They have big teams behind them that write their speeches. Don’t get it twisted. You can be the next big Yamina, the next big Nick, you be you. Don’t limit yourself with the stories of old. And that’s what they are. Stories from before, before, before. Stories from your parents, not even yours, it’s your parents story and you are living it. It’s your auntie’s story who said X to you or said Y to you and you are living her ending. Put those stories down. Remove the limits from your life, be explicit and be intentional and decide. I will not be limited by my protected characteristic. I will be liberated into the greatness that that characteristic holds. Now come on, come on.

00:22:06:18 – 00:22:55:01
Yamina
I’m in tears, as always. Whenever Diana speaks or says anything, I, I just cry. But it just resonates so much with me and I’m sure with Nick as well, and with lots of our listeners. And actually I’m just so moved by that because it’s exactly what you did for us in our courageous leadership course. You helped us remove those stories and change the stories. Sorry listeners, but Diana is living and breathing with that and I know your commitment to the manifesto is exactly that. To intentionally choose to relinquish the role of being your own internal enemy, refuse to be confined by your perceptions, make room for a change in your understandings of what is true or false. Nick and I were just wondering, while I cry, if you could tell us more about that commitment to the manifesto and how you want to really galvanise the readers and our listeners today?

00:22:55:27 – 00:26:45:03
Diana
You know, our manifesto, we have a negative connotation of what a manifesto is because politicians take that word and make it dirty, right? Here’s our manifesto. Nobody reads the damn thing. Right? But people get it out a year later. You haven’t done what’s on the manifesto. So let’s just reclaim that word and reframe that. Here is a toolkit, here’s a manifesto for change. But change is an active word. It’s a verb. It’s a doing word. You don’t just sit there. You don’t change. You’ve got to do something now. And if that doing just means from today I will not criticise myself with my mouth. That’s a doing change that will change your life if you stop being your internal critic and start being your internal advocate. Just that internal change, just one where you say from today, I am not going to cut off the advantage that is available to me because I don’t normally talk to people like that. I don’t normally go to dinner with people like that. I’ve got no clue what that means. I was going to walk away from it, so I’m not going to ask questions in case I look stupid. There’s nothing wrong with looking stupid. I do it all the time. Yeah, I ask questions. If you think I look stupid, that’s your problem. Not my problem. I’m asking the question. Answer my question. What are you going to do today that will bring about change in you personally? One in your family life? Because we don’t go to work as leaders and come back and be something else. We’re always family and then in your professional arena, if you decide to be different just by doing two things, stop criticising yourself. Start praising yourself. That’s it. Just start there. You will spark a fire in you that cannot be extinguished unless you do it. You can choose today to be different and take one step into your greatness. Great people have stable minds that don’t allow internal criticism to take over, and I certainly don’t allow other people to criticise me and I take that to a level where I personally condemn myself. You could criticise what I’ve done. You can criticise what I’ve said, take it apart, but I will not internalise that and become your criticism. Do you see the difference? So what are you going to do today? Today, today? There’s no other day looking for change. Swallow that frog. Make a decision. Today I stop doing X and I start doing Y. If you do one thing, listeners do this. Stop paying out royalties on mistakes you’ve made in the past. Such as, you still feel guilty because you did X or you did Y, you still shed tears because of this or that, things you did years ago, things you said ages ago. You are still paying out royalties on it. You didn’t understand then, but you do now. Don’t pay out any more royalties. Close that mistake’s account.

00:26:45:03 – 00:27:08:13
Nick
I hope there are a lot of listeners to this because a lot of people need to hear it. It’s so powerful. Yamina and I wanted to just, I suppose, bring it towards a conclusion, ask about the changes that now need to happen. So with regarding the conversations that we’ve been having today, the protected characteristics that we’ve been talking about, what do you think now needs to happen in education and I suppose beyond to make things better?

00:27:09:28 – 00:29:05:29
Diana
The key thing, lots of things, but the key thing I would say is we need diversity at governance and trustee level throughout education because that is where strategic decision making occurs, which then guides the organisation’s trajectory. And if diverse voices and expertise and experience and perspective is not at that table, you’re always fixing stuff, never starting from a position of strength, but you’re always fixing and having a committee and having a meeting and having a working party. Your working party needs to be at trustee level. So I would say every trustee, every trust, every trust board, every MAT, every governing body of every school in this country needs to pursue diversity with such ferocity, ferocity. Not having one black governor, one gay one and one one woman. Right, we’ve ticked that box. I mean, ferocious diversity. Young, old, black, white, Muslim, Christian, no faith, everyone at these because we have all these young people in our schools and we need to ensure that we are not hindering ourselves by having only a certain kind of voice as strategic level and then diversifying after. That is what I would say. If, if we are serious. I think some people are. I think some are ready to pivot, then talk to your organisation and say, at trustee level this year, by this time next year, we must see change in our trustees so that we truly have advantage in our organisation.

00:29:07:13 – 00:29:23:05
Nick
Thank you so much, Diana. You are absolutely amazing. And I genuinely don’t have the words to respond to how great you’ve been. You’re just fantastic. It’s been so good to hear from you. And I know that Yamina and I are really, really grateful. So thank you so much.

00:29:24:00 – 00:29:33:26
Yamina
Thank you so much, Diana. Thank you. We’ve been Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi the co-hosts of the Diverse Ed podcast.

[Outro Music]

00:29:33:26 – 00:29:50:07
Hannah
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Diverse Educators Podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think so do leave us a review. We’ll be back soon with another author from our book Diverse Educators: A Manifesto.

[Intro Music]

00:00:08:11 – 00:01:02:25
Hannah
Welcome to the Diverse Ed podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: everyone is celebrated, in every classroom, in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies the stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series one of the Diverse Ed podcast we have ten episodes. In each episode our co-hosts Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, share the challenges they’ve had to navigate on their journey, and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

00:01:05:17 – 00:01:17:29
Nick
Hello everyone and welcome to the Diverse Ed Podcast. My name is Nick Kitchener-Bentley and I’m a lead practitioner and drama / inclusion teacher at Sarah Bonnell School. I’m also on the steering group for LGBT ed.

00:01:18:23 – 00:01:29:14
Yamina
And I’m Yamina Bibi and I’m an assistant head teacher also at Sarah Bonnell School. I’m also a network leader for Women Ed in London. In this episode, we talk to Audrey from the intersectionality chapter.

00:01:30:15 – 00:01:43:12
Nick
Okay, Audrey, something that we like to do at the start is just to ask the people appearing on our show a little bit more about themselves. So would it be okay if you could just introduce yourself to the audience in one sentence, please?

00:01:44:25 – 00:02:04:08
Audrey
No problem at all. Okay. So it’s a long sentence. I am Audrey Pantelis and I am a black female and former head of school. And I’m also a wife, a sister, an auntie, a great auntie, godmother and I’m director of Relation Coaching and Consulting. I said it was long.

00:02:05:01 – 00:02:06:20
Nick
That was a great sentence. I love that.

00:02:07:19 – 00:02:16:19
Yamina
I love that so much. So I want to start by asking you what inspired you to write your contribution to Diverse Educators: A Manifesto?

00:02:16:19 – 00:03:21:13
Audrey
Okay. Well, this is a great question, and it’s one that’s been asked of, I’ve asked myself actually in reading when I read the book again, I guess I was inspired by my own and as it was then, a relatively recent experience as a black female leader. And I guess I wanted to share my thoughts, share my experiences. Number two, I wanted to gauge whether my own experiences were common and whether the intersectionality factor was indeed a factor in whether I felt I was being discriminated against. As I kind of perceived it to be. And number three, because intersectionality as a word, as a concept was out there. But I don’t know how well it was understood and catered for in the workplace. So I thought, I’ll put my stuff out there we’ll see where it goes, see how it lands. And yeah, that’s kind of what inspired me to write it. Yes.

00:03:22:16 – 00:03:55:00
Nick
Thanks, Audrey. It’s really interesting to hear what you say there about thinking about your own experiences, but also then connecting that to see how far other people also have those experiences. And then also like that, the extent to which there is an understanding of that term intersectionality as well. It’s a really, really interesting to hear your reflections there, and that kind of brings to mind my next question, which is about the overall chapter and the different people who contributed to the chapter. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about some of those different themes in the whole chapter on intersectionality and that you think the whole team wanted to explore?

00:03:56:12 – 00:05:30:09
Audrey
Yeah, so I think it’s amazing, isn’t it? And maybe this is something we’ll unpack a little bit further on, but the whole idea that this amazing book is all about the protected characteristics, but of course intersectionality is not a protected characteristic, and yet it impacts every single one of us because we are all intersectional, full stop. And I guess it was thinking about the whole idea about what intersectionality is, which is a framework for understanding oppression. So it’s the idea that we, we’ve explored through the nine different protected characteristics throughout the book. And then we talk about the exploration of how they combine and how they impact on a daily basis. So I think it’s really about everyone’s viewpoint, obviously from their own perspective, but then thinking about the fact that these all exist. We know that it started off, you know, from the American lawyer and scholar and activist Kimberly Crenshaw. We know that. And she was looking at it from a feminist point of view and obviously feminism and race. But really what we see as we expand is just just that whole idea that, you know, all of these different interlocking protected characteristics create, if you like, a new perspective, a new lens, a new viewpoint. So I think that’s probably what for me, what I pulled from our chapter really so I love the fact that we are a 10th chapter and we’re not a protected characteristic, but we are, if you like.

00:05:31:26 – 00:05:51:24
Yamina
I love that idea that actually we’re looking at it from a new lens and even though it’s not a protected characteristic it is still a really important part of people’s identity. And so moving into that, then what would you say are some of the key challenges for people who come under the intersectionality protected characteristic and that your team really wanted to address?

00:05:53:12 – 00:07:50:04
Audrey
So yeah, I think I might have touched on it literally in my last answer. So the fact that it’s not a protected characteristic, but because it’s becoming more prevalent, we are noticing, as I said, you know, to highlight the word you’ve highlighted – lens, perspectives because we’re now thinking about that. That’s really key. And so it’s, I think it’s really thinking about the idea that everyone experiences oppression differently or experiences those barriers those challenges differently based on where they are. So you can only start from where you are. And so for me, as a black female, you know, that was where I was thinking about it. And I think the word itself, thinking about intersectionality, where things combine, not so much collide, it’s just about the combination. So I think that’s what we really wanted to address. You know, this is how we see it as a gay Christian man or as a, you know, a menopausal Asian woman or whatever the particular protected characteristics happen to combine and be, intersect at the time. So I think really it’s, I suppose I’m trying to say really when, when our protected characteristics intersect. When they do intersect, it’s multilayered. Things become multilayered and so we have to think about it with those different layers in mind, whether they constrain or constrict or whether they enable, I suppose is partly down to us as individuals, but it’s also partly how society views that. And I guess it’s that recognition piece really, probably, how I see these are some of the key challenges that we have.

00:07:50:19 – 00:09:14:28
Nick
Thank you so much for that, Audrey. It’s fascinating to hear that kind of dichotomy that you drawing out there, whether the intersections either constrain or enable people. And I love that. Yeah, you also kind of reflected on whether or not that’s something that goes on within a person themselves or if it’s more about society as a whole and is a yeah, it’s a really interesting kind of conversation to have, so thank you for that. Something that Yamina and I wanted to do when we were interviewing people was to ask a little bit more about the takeaways that they wrote about towards the end of their contributions. And so, so I’m going to read out your takeaways here and maybe ask you to reflect or expand upon them and why they’re important to you, and yours are great, so you said we can recognise the leadership potential in black female leaders and capture the talent through positive action strategies to encourage leadership candidates to be identified and nurtured. We can make the system less adversarial by genuinely encouraging the diversity that we seek in children and young people in our black female leaders. We can make the system more diverse by looking at the Equality Act and ensuring that we are actively promoting strategies to positive action and living it through scrutiny of data and monitoring. I mean, Audrey, you are so positive. Everything is we can, we can, which I absolutely love in your takeaways. But could you just maybe reflect on some of these for us and explain why they’re so important to you.

00:09:15:25 – 00:11:10:02
Audrey
No problem, so the three takeaways are kind of what I stand for. So the work that I do now and what I was doing then, the work I’m going to be doing in the future all kind of really are based upon positive action because that’s ultimately what we have within the Equality Act to be able to kind of, you know, strengthen black female leaders. So, you know, I’m going to quote for you that, you know, the statistic that I started my contribution to the book with, which is the fact that there are just 55 female, black or black British headteachers from a workforce of just 3784 female, black or black British teachers. That was for 2019, 2020. And of course, sadly, these numbers will be different. And of course, I was part of the statistics at the time, but I’m no longer part of those statistics because I’m no longer in teaching as such. And it’s not great, for me, and from my perspective, there’s a real barrier with regards to black British female teachers and promotion, and we tend to kind of go so far before, we effectively, it feels like we get knocked down. And so in sharing my contribution, what I’ve quickly learned is that I’m not unique. This is not, I’m not the first person this has happened to. And I’m sadly probably not going to be the last. So I’m really thinking about the idea of how we get these positive action strategies out there and how we make them. We nurture and we grow our black female teachers to become leaders and then ultimately school leaders. You know, I just want to, I want to amplify that kind of message. And I want to strengthen it, I want to strengthen it across the board with regards to positive action anyway. But obviously, my particular area of interest is for black female leaders. So that’s really, that’s why they’re important to me.

00:11:10:02 – 00:11:35:18
Yamina
And I think that leads really well into your commitment to the manifesto where you ask your readers to think about this. So you say in order to develop and nurture future generations of resilient leaders recognise the impact of black female leaders in education who continue to overcome race and gender barriers, which is so powerful as a commitment. But we’d love it if you could expand more about your commitment to the manifesto, and how you want to galvanise actions from the reader and from our listeners.

00:11:35:18 – 00:14:39:01
Audrey
Absolutely. So it’s, this is multifaceted. I’m thinking about it from a black female leader perspective. I’m thinking about it from CEOs and directors of trusts and any anyone that has anything to do with welcoming and encouraging black female leaders in school or in education. I mean, we’ve got, they’re amazing. We’ve got strong and highly capable black women in education, and we’ve got to harness that strength and not cap it. So three things for me, support, check and encourage. So support, supporting through the recruitment process, you know, encourage, you know, the use of processes for recruitment, blind recruitment and processes so that you are getting genuinely the talent that you want. And by that, you know, encouraging through your recruitment processes in the advertising and actually stating what you’re looking for as well, which of course you can do through positive action. So the checking bit is the checking middle leaders and senior leadership teams, encourage that diversity. You know, think about progression. And progression doesn’t always mean necessarily money and status. It simply could just be experience as well and making it meaningful. You know, my title was of my particular contribution to the book is called Ceilings and Tears, so really thinking about the ceilings bit, you know, don’t cap the abilities of black female leaders. And then the last one, really my encourage bit is about the encouragement because black female leaders often are seen to be, you know, with one hat on I have to say, on one hand, I do look and think to my self so I can see why this happens, they’re almost seen to be almost like not superhuman, but almost like stronger than the average woman. And that’s not, I’m not trying to boast or anything like that, but it’s just simply that black female leaders are fairly capable and because of that, and again, I could do another podcast just on the reasons for that, there’s an expectation that they can pick up more, carry more, take more, do more. So in one respect, that to be applauded, that’s great. But actually, you know, everyone bleeds the same way everyone has to, you know, we all live the same way. We all feel the same things. So the perception is actually they’re superhuman, they can do it all, means that often they are kind of just left to get on, doing more, carrying more, enduring more. So it’s important that, you know, school leaders, trust leaders, CEOs, etc. don’t leave your black female leaders thinking that, you know, they’re alright, they can do it, they can carry it, they can keep going, they can keep going and heaping lots on them, really thinking about mentoring, thinking about coaching. They are essential for every leader anyway. But don’t forget your black female leaders and don’t just assume that they can just do loads and loads and loads, look after them, nurture them.

00:14:40:11 – 00:15:16:28
Nick
I loved hearing that. And the word ‘nurture’, I think is really powerful there. And hearing about all of those strategies and ideas that can support black female leaders and other leaders within education, just absolutely amazing. Audrey, from your response, I was thinking there’s so much that you’re describing there and there’s so much that can be done. What happens when these things are actually put in place? I mean, clearly, they’re not being put in place enough. We can see that from the statistics that you quoted earlier and the statistics that we know that are going on. But as you are saying, there are things that can be done, when these things are put in place what’s the impact that this actually has on black female leaders?

00:15:18:09 – 00:18:08:18
Audrey
Well, you will see not only the growth and the joy and thriving black female leaders in the education establishments. But you’re also seeing that knock on within the school community itself. And what you will see is a well, well-led. You will see a vibrant, you will see a creative, you will see gosh, I’m just trying to think, what are the words? I mean those words are good for starters anyway aren’t they. But I think what you’re seeing is an environment where young people, especially if you have children and young people from diverse backgrounds, seeing people that look like them, doing amazing things, enabling that environment for them to feel, Yeah, I can do this too. And even if you’re not from a diverse background, and even if the cohort of the students, the children, the young people are predominantly one particular race, it doesn’t even matter either, because what black female leaders are doing are bringing their A-game, able to see things being done in a different way. So everyone wins, everyone wins. And also because you are not stifling black female leaders, you’re enabling them to, you know, to be their best selves. So, you know, it’s not that black female leaders are vibrant all of the time, although mostly are, what you’ll find is that actually there’s the contrast and the ability to contrast and not just being one thing is enabled and so that dimensional aspect and a dimensional approach to school leadership enables others to also feel that they can be the same as well. So, you know, it’s yeah. When it is done well, the school community benefits in so many ways. Parents will also see that role model aspect especially from diverse cohorts of thinking. Yeah, this is great. Personally, just a quick aside, something that definitely happened to me when I was in leadership, parents coming up to me and quietly just saying to me I’m really glad that you’re here and just those small comments, in fact I had an email not that long ago, even though I’ve not been obviously leading a school. And it was just amazing just that this parent had said it was great to have you in the school. It was lovely to know that we could see you. People felt safe and that’s important. So, I mean, there are many, many advantages but school communities just benefit 100%.

00:18:09:06 – 00:18:43:12
Nick
Thank you so much for that. I really, I really feel very impressed by what you said there. And it certainly rings true that that would be like a really positive impact that it would have on members of staff. And equally, like you say, the huge impact that it will have on school communities, the students and the parents and the impact that’s going to have, I think is absolutely wonderful. So I just want to thank you for that response. I think it’s a really good one. And my next question is going to be about the impact of intersectional leaders on your students. I think you did a fabulous job of answering that really nicely so I’m going to hand over to Yamina and you’ve got another question, haven’t you, Yamina.

00:18:44:01 – 00:19:14:05
Yamina
Yeah, I noticed, I think one particular anecdote really stood out to me where you talked about when you had gained the post of head of school and how you essentially were told by your line manager that you were a maverick and then you’d go on to describe how you struggled to see that in a positive light. And I was wondering if you could tell our listeners more about why you struggled with this, because they might not understand why and what impact it had on you particularly and things like that might have on black leaders.

00:19:14:12 – 00:22:02:03
Audrey
Fantastic question, Yamina, I’m yeah, happy to share that one. Yeah. The context that I guess was actually, the full context was that I was trying to internally kind of get promoted and what I was told and the phrase was used maverick was simply that there were certain things that I kind of did my own way, hence the term maverick. So that to me alluded to that I wasn’t following the rules. I wasn’t able to follow the rules almost like I was making a decision not to. I don’t think that was the case. I think it was the intersectionality aspect maybe of thinking about it from a particular lens and applying that lens, which wasn’t the conventional lens. So at the time I didn’t have the language for that. All I saw was it was just a bit of a cuss, really, oh, you’re not doing what you should be doing. And schools are quite punitive in that respect, aren’t they. We try not to do that with our children, and we endeavour to try to encourage and promote, you know, better and more improved behaviours. But ultimately we get told off and I felt like I was being told off. So that’s kind of where it came from. So I couldn’t see it in the way that probably I see it now, which is actually that was my lens, that was what I was bringing. Having said that, let me not forget that, you know, ultimately we have processes and protocols that we need to have in school to make it run smoothly. Otherwise, you know, we’ve got problems if everyone’s kind of just doing their own thing. So I also recognize as well that that’s probably how I took it, that I wasn’t fulfilling what it was that I needed to do in order to make sure that, you know, the school runs smoothly. So I saw it, now I can see it was an intersectional approach and that felt as if it was punitive. But actually I can see where my line manager was coming from, but I didn’t take it particularly favourably at the time. But also I did recognise and I can recognize now that there wasn’t necessarily the appetite or the ability to see that actually this was how I was seeing it. So this is how I was doing it. Ultimately, if I needed to be corrected, I needed to be corrected. You know, the ending of the story was obviously I didn’t stay in the school, but it wasn’t because of that particular line manager actually at the time. But what was interesting was that I don’t think school leaders have that ability to be able to be intersectional in their approach because we are, the nature of the work that we do means that we kind of have to conform. So I think that’s really where that came from. I forgot the second part of the question. Yamina, so you might have to repeat it for me.

00:22:02:03 – 00:22:36:01
Yamina
I think you answered it perfectly. Thank you. I just think it was just such an interesting anecdote. And I know lots of leaders who say they are intersectional in their identity who have perhaps being described in similar ways and not in a positive way, almost like you said, as a cuss and not knowing how to deal with that and actually the implications it then has, an impact it then has on them and how they feel about about themselves, particularly as leaders. And I think you just answered that. So I won’t probe anymore, but thank you, Audrey.

00:22:36:01 – 00:23:31:20
Nick
And it’s a strength, isn’t it? I mean, it’s very easy for me to sit here as a white, cisgender man and say, oh, it’s great. We should have other people be, you know, you have people be mavericks and it’s a great thing. But I also think Yamina when you, when you’re describing that it is maybe bringing to mind kind of leaders that I know and I’ve worked with before that maybe have been described in some of those terms, who I think are among the most wonderful leaders and who would also identify as being intersectional leaders probably. But yeah, it’s just a really powerful thing. And I think the word ‘maverick’, yeah, the way you kind of unpacked it for us there Audrey is just absolutely fantastic. Thank you for that. And we wanted to go on to thinking about kind of broad, a little bit more broadly aswell Audrey, in terms of changes, we’re really interested in an ideal world. What kind of changes would you like to see happen in the school system regarding intersectionality?

00:23:31:26 – 00:25:19:20
Audrey
I guess in a way I think I’ve probably touched on it, so I’ll try not to repeat myself too much. But yeah, I think it’s the idea that, number one, we’re able to bring our whole selves, our whole authentic selves to the role. We bring our particular intersectional lens to what we do. It’s recognised, it’s encouraged, it’s nurtured as well. You know, I think that that would be ideal. We’re talking about diversity now across the board, aren’t we, in you know, schools are desperate to embrace it from a time when definitely in education I can remember where we were all told to be the same or, you know, colour blindness was a thing, you know, any any form of blindness was a thing, really. You know, any form of difference was not encouraged unless it was only about excellence. So it’s interesting that we’re now in a time where the more diverse you are, the more we are wanting to celebrate that and not tolerate. So I think really that’s what I would love to see happening, especially for all leaders, now, it’s a slow change. It’s not, it’s not going to be instant. It takes a while to unpack the well, the embedded ways of working, so some people will change quickly. Some organisations will change quickly. Quite a number of them won’t, not because they don’t want to, but it’s just about the understanding aspect of things. So I think that’s really where I think I would love to see that happening and hopefully I’m contributing to that by the work that I do.

00:25:19:20 – 00:25:24:06
Yamina
In an ideal world, Audrey, what changes would you like to see happen in wider society?

00:25:24:06 – 00:27:06:00
Audrey
In the wider society, I think it’s the recognition of those differences. I think that’s the thing that’s probably the biggest thing for me and it’s something that I actually talk about in my training quite extensively. So even though I’m talking about it from an education point of view, what I’m about to say probably is applicable full stop. So I know that the differences that black female leaders have and white female leaders have are completely different. And as I say, I utilise this with regards to the training I do. So I will often say that even though I was a headteacher of a school and I was a black female lead and the head, but usually it is, not always but usually, a female white leader I would say even though we both do the same jobs of leading schools, our experience is 100% different. And they’ll be things that are enabled for my white female colleague. That weren’t afforded to me, and I think that’s across the board. I think regardless of whichever area you work in, I think that’s probably still applicable. So that’s what I would really want to be thinking about now. The recognition of those differences and bridging the gap between those differences. And so they’re minimised. I don’t think we’ll ever eradicate them, unfortunately, but we can minimise them and we can make it so the playing field is far more level again. It’s always going to be about the whole thing of people recognising there’s differences, people understanding those differences, and people doing something about it.

00:27:07:14 – 00:27:24:00
Nick
Love that call to arms at the end, Audrey. Thank you. Doing something about it is so important, isn’t it. You have been absolutely fantastic to talk to this morning. All of your ideas, all of your energy, all of your insightful criticism, but also ideas about positive things that can be done. And it’s just been brilliant to hear.

00:27:24:00 – 00:27:36:03
Nick
And I’m so, so grateful to you for joining us to talk about intersectionality and also your own experience as a black female leader as well. So thank you very much. I just want to say it’s been really wonderful to speak to you this morning. Thank you.

00:27:36:15 – 00:27:45:19
Yamina
Thank you so much, Audrey. We’ve been Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi, the co-hosts of the Diverse Ed podcast.

[Outro Music]

00:27:45:19 – 00:28:02:00
Hannah
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Diverse Educators podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think so do leave us a review. We will be back soon with another author from our book Diverse Educators: A Manifesto.

[Intro Music]

00:00:08:11 – 00:01:02:25
Hannah
Welcome to the Diverse Ed podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: everyone is celebrated in every classroom, in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies the stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series one of the Diverse Ed podcast, we have ten episodes. In each episode our co-hosts Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, share the challenges they’ve had to navigate on their journey, and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

00:01:05:16 – 00:01:18:19
Nick
Hello and welcome to the Diverse Ed Podcast. My name is Nick Kitchener-Bentley and I’m a lead practitioner and drama / inclusion teacher at Sarah Bonnell School. I’m also on the steering group for LGBT ed.

00:01:19:04 – 00:01:30:10
Yamina
And I’m Yamina Bibi, and I’m an assistant head teacher, also at Sarah Bonnell school. I’m also a network lead for London as part of Women Ed. In this episode, we’ll be talking to Orla from the Religion and Belief chapter.

00:01:31:15 – 00:01:36:18
Nick
Okay, Orla. Can you please introduce yourself to the audience in one sentence?

00:01:37:13 – 00:01:48:23
Orla
I am Orla McKeating. I’m a coach and a mentor and I’m the founder of Still I Rise Diverse Storytelling. So I create trusted learning spaces for all people to feel seen, heard and valued.

00:01:50:10 – 00:01:55:27
Nick
That was perfect. One sentence, very nice. Thanks.

00:01:55:27 – 00:02:03:15
Yamina
Great. So I what to ask you first, what inspired you to write your contribution to Diverse Educators: A Manifesto?

00:02:04:17 – 00:02:57:25
Orla
Well, I have been an avid fan of Diverse Educators for a while, I have kind of been watching and reading and using the resources and connecting with people on social media and things. And I just really believe in the power of collaboration and collective voices. I feel like we’re kind of surrounded by all this news. You know, nearly everything around us seems to be so negative and it feels like sometimes are going backwards and how are all these things changing. And then I come into spaces like this where there is so much hope and there’s so much, I suppose, coming together to make change. And that’s really what inspired me in terms of the Religion and Beliefs chapter. I grew up in Belfast, I was educated in the eighties and nineties, which was during the Troubles and then just post Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland.

00:02:58:06 – 00:03:35:16
Orla
And so my normal has always been segregated education, and it was so normal to me that I suppose whenever I stopped and reflected, it was like actually this is not okay. Because when we even look at the impact of that on the mental health of us as a society in Northern Ireland, I don’t love using that word ‘us’, society as in ‘us’ and ‘them’, but society as a group in Northern Ireland, the mental health, it’s a pandemic. So I suppose it’s keeping myself aware of that and sharing that to the UK and globally, I suppose.

00:03:36:13 – 00:04:29:29
Nick
Orla, you speak so powerfully and you write about it very powerfully as well in your chapter. When Yamina and I were reading it, we were really kind of struck by how much you spoke about the impacts on the mental health of people in Northern Ireland. And I’m sure that there are lots of takeaways for people in other places as well. But yeah, it was really, really quite profound actually to read that. So thank you for writing it. And I was really struck in your comment there as well about why you’ve been involved with the Diverse Educators network as well. You’re talking about like coming together to make change and the idea of connecting with other people too. And I agree. I think that’s a real strength of the network. And on the idea of kind of coming together as well, we would just really be very interested about the overall dynamics and the approach of the people writing the Religion and Beliefs chapter. So could you tell us a little bit about the different themes that your chapter team sought to explore?

00:04:29:29 – 00:05:52:24
Orla
So, we kind of, I kind of looked at the impact of segregated education in Northern Ireland. So I do mention in my chapter that 93% of education here still is segregated. So very often children between the ages of 4 and 18 are not knowing other people from different creeds. And so I feel like this kind of fosters up misunderstanding and fosters fear nearly that can feed into, I mean, different parts of discrimination or aggressions or micro-aggressions and feeds into stereotypes I think as well. And then I also talked then about the mental health literally in our country. There’s such a huge array of transgenerational PTSD and mental health problems and issues that just keep getting past down. And I just feel like even the awareness of knowing that it’s there and being aware that, okay, this is happening. This might be because of this, might be because of this. How can I look at myself? How can I look at my children? How can I look even not being an educator or a parent or a carer or an adult with children at home? How can I have these conversations, I suppose, to make that change in terms of education and in terms of in society as a whole?

00:05:53:12 – 00:06:06:06
Yamina
No, absolutely. And I think you’ve kind of really started to delve into it, but we were also curious to know about some of the key challenges for people under this protected characteristic and that your team really wanted to address through your chapter.

00:06:08:02 – 00:06:51:24
Orla
I suppose the challenges that I was addressing with it is nearly getting kind of stuck in that cycle or that system of it nearly being your norm. So I wonder with me, I am a single mum of a mixed race child. I lived in Belgium for ten years, which is a really, really diverse society and diverse in terms of what you can see but also diverse in terms of the mindset as well. And so I think the key challenge is, I suppose, is allowing people or inviting people to be aware of what impact this might have and how we might be able to make change.

00:06:52:26 – 00:07:58:18
Nick
And you write about that really powerfully and you talk about change quite a bit in your chapter. Whilst you talk about all of those challenges, I think you are very optimistic about what you think can change and some of those changes, so it would be really interesting to talk about that. And we were really struck by your takeaways in terms of what you were suggesting about the society as well. And I’m just going to read it out, but after I’ve read it out it would be really interesting for you to maybe expand upon them a little bit and maybe tell us a little bit about why they’re so important to you, because you wrote that a segregated education system does not foster common understanding, tolerance or equality. The mental health rate has declined and suicide rates increased. While there are other factors to consider, the education system is not benefitting from this. The lack of representation and inclusion within the curriculum has maintained a fixed mentality, halted intellectual curiosity and challenges the basic human rights of equity for all people. I mean, it’s really powerful stuff. But I was just wondering if you wanted to maybe expand on any of this in any way or explain why it’s important to you.

00:07:59:03 – 00:12:23:26
Orla
Yeah, sure. It’s quite bananas when people read back your work to you because I’m reading the back thinking, whoa, that’s actually quite good. And at the time, you don’t know if it is. So I suppose the segregated education system not fostering the understanding, tolerance, equality. It others, like it others. In a Catholic school setting here in Northern Ireland, I have seen where they’re practising sacraments. People who are not in the Christian in the Catholic faith will be put at the back of the room without a book, without any resources. What impact does that have on the child and also what is that saying then to the majority of the classroom that is Catholic and is choosing to do the sacrament. I mean, does that imply that being Catholic makes you better than someone else? And then later on in life, what does that feed in to? So I think that was a major thing for me. And then it’s feeding into the stereotypes. I’m a white cis woman of privilege. I’m like, I really had to unpack and unlearn a lot to kind of see, to open my own eyes. And that’s work that I’ve chosen to do. So those who maybe don’t have the space to reflect, feeding into the stereotypes, I mean, feeding into what we see in society, what we see on the news, the representation in the media, in movies, like how certain groups are represented. It’s kind of feeding into that then in the classroom as well. And it just it normalises grouping different people. So just putting different people in boxes and then that obviously affects the opportunity for growth and for progression and it just leaves underrepresented groups with less. It just does and it’s not enough. It’s, it’s just not enough. And it’s got to change. And I suppose then the mental health rates, how do we integrate mental health into the curriculum? How do we move away from, in Ireland and Northern Ireland our country was run by the church for so long that like it’s really important to me and this is a really personal one for me as well, because whenever I became a single mother, I just felt like I had failed, like that was it. And I was 30 and I mean, I lived away, I had had great experiences. I had friends from different, different faiths and different experiences. You know, whenever I turned 30 and became a single parent, it was like, oh, my life is done now, like it is so ingrained in me that like I had failed. I was a fallen woman. I was like nearly put in this group that if I didn’t have the character that I had, I would have just stayed there. And I know there’s so many other women who end up being single, single parents, and they’re just so massively affected by that. And that has been our upbringing like it just has. And I think I mentioned in the book about the mother and baby homes in Ireland and Northern Ireland, where if you were an unmarried mother, you just got put into and you were just, you were called an inmate, you were institutionalised and there was so much abuse went on there, that that’s nearly, it was normal again, normal in our society. I know people were families that happened to and it was just accepted. So it’s how do we move away from that? How do we have the conversations that are difficult to have where we can accept situations that are ultimately healthier for children, for young people, for adults, and I suppose like language is also a really important thing for me. Like I see quite a lot in the education system here and I don’t know about the UK, but perhaps the same where they’re sending notes home for Mum and Dad. Straight away that’s othering so many groups, same gender families, maybe widowed parents and single parents, people in care. It’s so complex and it just, I suppose, focusing on a more inclusive setting bit by bit, baby step by baby step, and being tolerant and accepting of each other, really being aware that, yes, we’re going to say the wrong thing. Yes, we’re going to mess up. Yes, we need to do the work a little bit ourselves, to look at these underrepresented groups in society and in the classroom and dig deeper on that and move it into the curriculum. And it’s a big task, but I’ve got to stay positive.

00:12:23:26 – 00:12:50:23
Yamina
It’s actually something that you mentioned in your commitment in the manifesto where you say essentially what we need to do is create a more inclusive approach to education where all are valued, respected and have equal opportunity to thrive as well as building a thriving nation. I just love that term, but we were wondering if you could tell us more about that commitment to the manifesto and how you want to galvanise readers and also the listeners here today.

00:12:50:23 – 00:14:41:20
Orla
I suppose, like I’ve said, awareness and merely being compassionate with those around us and ourselves and being aware that we all have the access to knowledge, we have the access to resources. It is not up to marginalised groups to educate us. It’s just not. Like, it’s all there. Get the book. Buy the Manifesto. I use this for a lot of my learning as well and it’s just kind of knowing, right, the system isn’t working. It’s not equal. What’s going to change when we take the steps to make it more inclusive and more diverse, and more accepting? What does this mean for our grandchildren? What are our leaders going to look like? Because the way the world is being led now is not good enough and it’s not enough. So what, and it’s nearly like breaking it down into 20 years. I want our leader to look like this. So ten years it’s got to look like this. Five years, these are our children. Like these are the conversations we can be having with our children and nearly having the conversations about, because my son’s nine, and he will ask questions like whenever, I won’t mention any names, but whenever there is leadership flaws and mishaps, you can call it what you want, mess ups essentially, and letting the big portions of the country down. It’s having those conversations of, well, do you know, do you think this is fair? Do you think that worked? How did it not work? How might It not have worked. And when we look around, you know, when we’re looking at the leaders now, what do they look like? What are their thoughts? What are their beliefs? Listen to the words that they’re using and then just gradually building up that awareness there so that young people and even adults can kind of move forward with that.

00:14:43:04 – 00:15:57:18
Nick
I find it really interesting to hear what you meant about kind of young people and adults moving forward about that. And I think your contribution is a really forward facing one because you as well as reflecting on the current situation, you also talk about potential solutions as well, which I find really, really important. You also spoke quite a bit just now about some of the unpacking that you’ve had to do as somebody who’s a white, cis person. And since that reflects my own identity as well, I completely echo what you’re saying and you know encourage others to make sure that we’re reflecting on that privilege as well. And one of the things that I think you’ve taken from that is talking about the curriculum, and that was really, really interesting to me to think about curriculum, why it’s so important. We noticed in your chapter that one of the questions posed was what might happen if we implemented a curriculum, learning about history and background of all cultures, creeds and ethnicities. I’m really interested to hear about what you think, what might happen, or what has happened when such an inclusive curriculum actually is used. I mean, I know you’ve been talking about examples actually where it hasn’t been used, but I was wondering what you think might happen if it is implemented or any examples that you’ve heard of where it’s been implemented as well.

00:15:58:17 – 00:17:20:17
Orla
So I think if we look at history or share history or stories from the past or change makers of the past that are actually representative of society today, how much is that going to empower underrepresented groups. In fact, I’ll answer that question, it’s going to empower them. It’s going to empower them to do better. It’s going to empower them to know that they can make change, that they can make a difference. And then the majority groups are going to understand, well actually, you know, it’s kind of that subconscious thing as well, I think of, and I’ve definitely experienced it, of my life is going to be easy and then something will happen that’s like a big moment, a big kind of life changing moment. So in my life it was becoming a single parent. I’m thinking, oh my goodness, I’m actually not, you know, there’s going to be barriers, now. So the majority groups in the classroom knowing that actually it wasn’t just people that looked like me that made change and made history and made the world the way it is. It’s other people. And I can see that and I can see people that looked like that in my classroom that can also make change. And I’m going to walk beside them and I’m going to support them and I’m going to help them break down those barriers and they’re going to help us work together to make change. And it just would I mean, to me, it’s a no brainer. It’s just a no brainer. Like the way it has worked isn’t working at all or the way it has been isn’t working at all.

00:17:20:17 – 00:18:03:06
Nick
So I just had a question that just struck me is, sometimes when these conversations happen, you see people say things like, oh, but that’s narrowing the curriculum offer. Like, you know, there’s a lot of conversation. I don’t know if this is just something that’s in the English curriculum. It might be relevant as well in Northern Ireland, but people say, oh, but you’re canceling Shakespeare, you’re getting rid of that rich cultural heritage that people deserve. And you know, my opinion is that I think that those arguments are massively overblown and unhelpful. But what kind of comments would you make if you were to hear somebody that would make that kind of a suggestion about the fact that what you’re suggesting is making a curriculum more diverse and more progressive?

00:18:04:03 – 00:18:28:22
Orla
Well, I think there’s enough stars in the sky for everyone. It doesn’t mean that we need to cancel or remove or change. It’s adding more to it. So add more experiences, adding more voices to it, add more fascination and curiosity for our children. So I don’t think it’s this or that. I think it’s kind of integrating more and more variety.

00:18:29:28 – 00:19:02:28
Yamina
Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And I think the idea of mapping it out perhaps and really planning how we do that is really, really important. So we’ve got that representation. But what really struck me from your chapter, Orla, was that you inform us that Northern Ireland has the highest rate of PTSD of any studied country in the world. I didn’t know that until I read your chapter. It’s shocking. You specifically mentioned that stigma is essentially still the major deterrent for people seeking out help. And we were curious to know what suggestions you had about what we could do to tackle this.

00:19:04:14 – 00:20:51:26
Orla
I think creating trusted spaces where we can have conversations, where it’s not attacking people, where it’s not judging people, where it’s, you know, creating a culture nearly of mental health wise, do you know what, I’m actually not okay today. Like I feel like this. I’m going to work through it. I’m going to find the tools to do that. I’m not joking about it, like I feel like and I do it too still whenever I’m a bit lost, but there’s a lot of a narrative of like lots of banter or lots of craic, like trauma, let’s make a joke out of this. Sometimes it’s kind of like, you know what? Let’s just maybe unpack it. Let’s, let’s look and let’s see and let’s accept and know that it’s not normal to be happy and productive all of the time. And I think we have access to, everything’s always on, like it’s not 9 to 5 any more. It’s answering emails, it’s contacting, it’s meetings, it’s zoom meetings in the evening, on the weekend and everything. So it’s nearly accepting, accepting ourselves as we are and accepting everyone else as they are. And for creating those spaces for conversation and for raising that awareness. I just think that conversation and communication is one of the most powerful ways for reducing stigma. Like it’s why I do the work that I do and I do see an impact I really do, and I see an impact in my own personal life, on my own kind of mental health struggles that I kind of deal with quite regularly. So yeah.

00:20:51:26 – 00:21:21:18
Nick
I find that really powerful and it certainly resonates with me as well. It’s so, so important that those conversations have happened and in your chapter you write quite a bit about this as well. You also talk about how we need to reframe the curriculum so that young people are supported in terms of their mental health. And you also, obviously in your own work, have done a great deal to support educators as well. I was just wondering, where you have done that work to support educators regarding their mental health, what kind of impact have you seen? How has that really helped people?

00:21:21:18 – 00:22:08:05
Orla
In terms of the educators and the adults, it’s much more of a slow burner than with children and young people. But I suppose it’s met like with curiosity and nearly there’s a bit of shock there. It’s kind of like, what, we can do our job and talk about the things that aren’t typically talked about and nearly accept them. And I think there’s, there’s positive impact. Like I think it’s kind of allowing or inviting people to be transparent with children and with young people and be transparent with themselves and with the people that they work with and their peers and know that that’s okay.

00:22:08:05 – 00:22:23:25
Nick
Thank you. Moving forward to considering the way that things can be better then, Yamina and I were really interested to consider in an ideal world what kind of changes would you like to see happen in the school system regarding the protected characteristic of religion and belief?

00:22:25:07 – 00:24:03:20
Orla
I want to see representation across the board like I want my child, I want young people in our society to be learning about every different religion and not a tick box of random like, oh, this is this and we’ll move on. This is, you know, not homing in on Christianity. I want to see them learn it about, and celebrating, all of the different aspects of different religion and different beliefs and moving away nearly from that fear factor. And not knowing and having those trusted spaces where questions can be asked and where it’s okay to do that. And also, I would love to see, I know that Halal food, this is an example, Halal food is served in all the schools in the UK. Do the staff actually know what Halal food is? Because my son keeps getting given halal food and I know why, but I know that it’s the staff aren’t being educated in it. So they see a child with brown skin and automatically think that he eats Halal food. Not only is that a micro-aggression, but what message is that giving to his Muslim peers in the dinner hall. So it’s nearly just digging deep on that and spending more time on it. Like it shouldn’t just be like an hour a week. It should be an ongoing thing where you’re learning from, in Northern Ireland it’s P1 to P7 so age 4 to 11, and maybe dig in a bit deeper, seeing what those beliefs are and where they come from and what the cultures are and why we could celebrate them and maybe have those culture days again moving away from the tick box, but having people come and share that culture and celebrate it in the school setting.

00:24:05:09 – 00:24:15:23
Yamina
Thank you so much. And then, Nick and I were really curious to kind of broaden it out. So if you had your ideal situation, or in an ideal world, what changes would you like to see happen in wider society then?

00:24:16:20 – 00:24:36:12
Orla
Representation. I want to see it everywhere. Like I want to see every marginalised group represented across the board. Like I want to see diverse leaders, I want to see diverse conversations. I want to see, like I want to see curiosity. I want to see representation.

00:24:38:02 – 00:25:13:26
Nick
I think that is a really, really important point and a really good one to end on as well. The idea of representation being so, so important and in your chapter you talk about that so much and in the conversation today you’ve done that as well. So I just wanted to say really, really big thank you for your contributions. You’ve spoken so powerfully in a way that I’m certain will resonate within and beyond your own context and for many others as well. And on behalf of Yamina and myself, I just want to say a huge thank you. You’ve given us a lot to think about, but I think it’s important that we think about it. And I know that we will all be really grateful for it. So, yeah, a huge thank you.

00:25:14:18 – 00:25:15:20
Orla
Thank you so much.

00:25:15:25 – 00:25:25:12
Yamina
Thank you so much, Orla. We’ve been Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi the co-hosts of the Diverse Ed podcast.

[Outro Music]

00:25:25:12 – 00:25:40:25
Hannah
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Diverse Educators Podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think, so do leave us a review. We’ll be back soon with another author from our book Diverse Educators: A Manifesto

[Intro Music]

00:00:08:11 – 00:01:02:25
Hannah
Welcome to the Diverse Ed podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: everyone is celebrated in every classroom, in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies the stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series one of the Diverse Ed podcast, we have ten episodes. In each episode, our co-hosts Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, share the challenges they’ve had to navigate on their journey, and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

00:01:05:18 – 00:01:19:01
Nick
Hello and welcome to the Diverse Ed Podcast. My name is Nick Kitchener-Bentley and I am a lead practitioner and drama / inclusion teacher at Sarah Bonnell School. I’m also on the steering group for LGBT ed.

00:01:19:26 – 00:01:31:25
Yamina
Hi, I’m Yamina Bibi and I’m an assistant headteacher also at Sarah Bonnell School, and I’m also a network lead for Women Ed in London. In this episode we’ll be talking to Kiran from the Marriage and Civil Partnership chapter.

00:01:32:18 – 00:01:45:03
Nick
Thank you very much. So just before we start, it’s always nice to hear a little bit about the people who are joining us. So we were wondering, Kiran if it’d be okay for you to just introduce yourself to the audience in one sentence, please.

00:01:46:13 – 00:02:13:19
Kiran
Firstly, thank you for having me both on Nick and Yamina, yes, I’ve recently become an assistant headteacher, I’m reading lead across the trust looking at literacy in particular. But my specialism is reading. A teacher of all year groups because I’m going back into year five and six after four years in key stage one. So I’m looking forward to that as well. And that’s more than a sentence. I apologise. I could tell you more. I’ll hold back.

00:02:15:17 – 00:02:22:19
Nick
No. It’s great. We love hearing. Do you want to tell us more? Because it’s great to hear about all of the people that are on the podcast.

00:02:23:06 – 00:03:10:01
Kiran
Yes. So Women Ed Network Leader. I’ve been with Women Ed for about five years now. I’ve made a lot of connections through Women Ed to the point where the job and the last four years of my career have probably been the best because of the connections I made though Women Ed. It’s that sense of community, but also that sense of connection based on values, which then sort of leads down to all the literacy work I’ve done with Just Imagine and Nicky Gamble who again is all for empowering women and enabling them for everyone, not just women. Everyone in terms of inclusivity. Yes. So and yeah, I think Women Ed has just been a great source of inspiration and connection and again, the reasoning for this book, I suppose, because without it, I suppose it wouldn’t be here.

00:03:11:14 – 00:03:21:08
Yamina
I love that. Thank you. Shout out to Women Ed. So just to delve straight in, really, what inspired you to write your contribution to Diverse Educators: A Manifesto.

00:03:22:10 – 00:04:18:21
Kiran
Someone believing in me if I’m being completely honest. So Hannah asked a few of us didn’t she and it was that idea of someone believing in you. I’d written a few blogs before anyway about fairy tales and princesses and I’ve got nothing against fairy tales or princesses. But I think it’s very, it becomes very stereotypical to the point where it limits young girls perceptions of themselves. So I think it was more about, well, how can I write this chapter in a way that in terms of academia as well, that is taken a bit more seriously, that these are limiting perceptions that young girls will have of themselves. And I’ve seen it through my career in early years all the way up to year five and six. So it was a worrying thread that I continued to see, yeah, it was more a case of serving these young girls and making sure that they understand that they’re more than their image.

00:04:20:05 – 00:04:56:01
Nick
Literally, thank you so much for writing the chapter. I’m so glad that you did because it is absolutely fascinating and the way that you unpack those different fairy tales and kind of open up for the reader ways that they need to be reframed, I found absolutely fascinating. So yeah, I’m really glad you wrote it and really glad that you believed in yourself as well. Yamina and I were also really interested as well as your own specific ideas about the overall themes in the whole chapter that your team that were looking into marriage and civil partnership wanted to explore. So what were some of those themes that emerged as the chapter was being written?

00:04:56:26 – 00:07:18:06
Kiran
It’s really great how Jackie put it all together, to be honest, because there was a thread that was running through about sort of disrupting the equilibrium. So Jackie edited it really, really well and a big shout out to Jackie because she was, she was phenomenal. And again, a great sense of and source of support. So we start with that fairy tale, that understanding that this is a part of our heritage. Isn’t it. In many ways, as young readers, it was unpacking what that actually has impacted on, it then goes into marriage becoming a feminist issue and some of the chapters talk about how women can lose their sense of identity as well, it’s just little things like the fact that your title changes from Ms to Mrs. But nothing ever happens to the men’s title. Interesting. It then goes into sort of family dynamics. And how inclusive are we when we think about the term marriage and how it relates to different families? So that’s similar. We talk about same sex marriages, same sex civil partnerships, but then looking at that from the child’s point of view. So having two mums, where is that in literature, how is that enabled in terms of representation within a school? And then it ends with again married couples as well. So in terms of like the range of voices that you have, they’re really inclusive. But then the married couple sort of go on there viewpoints about how they see marriage from a men’s point of view, a woman’s point of view in education and as leaders as well. Because there’s, there seems to be a thing, especially with women, where they get married, have their families and then their careers sort of stops for certain women and in certain settings. And again, I’ve seen it. I’ve worked in 5 or 6 schools now where it seems to be again a running theme where they have their children. They tend to go part time. They aren’t actually able to move up that ladder if they so choose to. But it seems like it, yeah, again, it limits it limits what you can do, which isn’t the case in this chapter because Sarah Mullin’s chapter sort of goes on to say that you can be more than just a wife. So it’s got loads of spectrums to it, loads of spectrums to it where anyone can read it, dip into it and take on somebody else’s point of view about marriage.

00:07:18:06 – 00:07:30:22
Yamina
Thank you so much for sharing that. And you kind of touched on it already, but we were curious to know what were the key things for people with this protected characteristic of marriage and civil partnership that your team really wanted to address?

00:07:31:20 – 00:08:59:05
Kiran
I think it was making sure that we see that person as more than just being married and that it doesn’t define you to the point where it limits you as well. So it’s those preconceived ideas of what a wife should be and what a husband should be and how that works. And again, bringing it down to children as well, not bringing it down, but bringing it towards the children’s perspectives, what role models are we giving them when they grow up right? What is it that we want them to see as potentials, as possibilities. Being married doesn’t mean that your career ends for a woman and for the man it tends to carry on. Being married doesn’t mean, it’s very heteronormative, isn’t it, when you think about patriarchal structures and things like that, it is still very heteronormative to the point where you think about capitalism and the way things are sold for gender still with children. And so it’s unpacking what it means to be married. And the way that the chapter is written is sort of like a prism of perspectives. It isn’t just this one view of marriage. It’s you take ownership of it as well, isn’t it, that from whatever point of view you’re coming from, I mean, you know, we’ve got same sex marriages in that chapter as well. And yet they’re not, they’re not represented in school, in education, in stories, yet they should be. So I think education to a certain degree needs to catch up with what’s actually happening rather than being comfortable with what’s already been.

00:09:00:10 – 00:09:33:17
Nick
I’m very interested by what you’re saying there. And if it’s okay to ask a follow up question on that, just because I find it really, really fascinating. You were speaking about the kind of the heteronormative kind of assumptions and the way in which kind of also for women, the way in which particular expectations have been underlined. And I was wondering, in your experience, based on what you were writing about, how far do you think those assumptions have actually impacted on young people and the children and students in our schools?

00:09:33:17 – 00:13:59:21
Kiran
Oh, a lot. I can speak from my personal experience. I’ve put it down almost as a case study in my chapter where it was year five and it was International Day of the Girl. And I asked the children, what do you think of when you think of a girl? And I specifically asked the boys and not the girls because I knew what their answers would be. But it had come from conversations that I had with some of the girls about their not being included in football outside and things like that. And I thought, well, why is that? Because when I unpacked it with the boys and their perception of what a girl was, it was basically they were describing a Barbie girl, a Barbie doll to the point where I was shocked because I thought, oh, my goodness, you’ve been in my class for a couple of months now. What have I done? What have I missed or what haven’t I done? I don’t know what my role modelling to you. But it wasn’t a sense of what haven’t I done, it was a case of that no one’s actually unpacked gender with them. And I think it’s really important that we distinguish sex between gender as well, because gender is a made up construct, it’s a societal construct. But then what that perception was doing for the boys was it was limiting their understanding of what girls are capable of doing. And within that 20, 25 minutes of conversation, the boys actually, you could see that they started to self-reflect to the point where their minds were blown quite a bit. They were like, well, why aren’t girls paid equally in football? And why. aren’t… so it then became that they were questioning the norms that were there. But that has been something that is seen in early years as well. Just again, with the way that plays that, the girls would always tend to go in the home corner and the boys were always in construction. And it was, it’s that understanding that they need different play to enable them to develop in different ways as parts of the brain that will develop because they, you know, they’re playing with construction and you could map it out, those myths about women drivers and the fact that they’ve got a lack of spatial awareness, but it’s probably because there’s certain parts of the brain that didn’t develop because of the fact they didn’t play with construction. So it was things like that it’s being aware of it and then sort of showing them actually you do need to be doing this. And the boys do need to come out of the construction and go into the home corner to develop those aspects of their personalities and that’s part of their development. So I think it’s being really, really aware of it that actually it’s quite pervasive. It happens without you realising, if you let it. But I think that’s why as educators, we need to be switched on to all of this, to the point where if we’re truly enabling children, if we’re truly enabling the young learners that we have in front of us, we need to challenge the assumptions that they’ve already been exposed to. Because that, I think, I’ll never forget the International Day of the Girl in 2017, because for me it was a case of these boys know what I’m like. I go rock climbing and things, so they know that their teacher does stuff that maybe not many women do. Then yet they still had quite a stereotypical view of a girl which again would limit them in terms of relationships and in all of that spectrum of understanding that they need. So it is very pervasive, I think, unless you are very aware of it, which I think this book does amazingly well, it taps into you in the sense that you need to be more critical and more challenging of what you see. We are sort of letting it fester. And then you have issues when they are older, when they are teenagers which I won’t go into. But then when they’re older and they’re men and they’re adults and they don’t understand what the word no means, and we’ve seen a lot of it in and we’ve seen a lot of it in the media now coming out. It’s on Love Island as well. That womens aid have got in contact with Ofcom about how the men are treating the women in Love Island. I don’t watch Love Island but do keep abreast of certain media issues. So it is very pervasive to the point where if we don’t challenge it when they’re younger and this idea of neuroplasticity as well, that they’re young enough to have their, it’s moldable, their ideas about society, their ideas about relationships and gender, and what it means to be a boy and what it means to be a girl is still very much mouldable at a young age. And when you get to the different types of formative years, then the impacts you can see in sometimes very worrying ways. I think we’ve got a really big responsibility to make sure that we are brave enough to be challenging it.

00:14:00:26 – 00:15:26:20
Nick
Kiran, you’ve spoken so well. And it’s really, really interesting to hear what you were saying about the fact that we need to challenge it and not just accept it and not just allow these things to be things that go on. And whilst what you were initially describing there in terms of, you know, you think it’s 2022 and young people are having some of these assumptions, how are they still existing? But what was that wonderful I thought, what was so powerful about it, is the way that you’ve offered like some really valuable ways of unpacking it and challenging it and talking about how this can be done. I was really interested, again, that you were saying how we need to talk about educators being switched on to and being aware of it. And that kind of brought to mind some of the takeaways that you wrote about at the end the chapter, and I’ll just read them out because I’m really interested by them and why you thought they were so important to you. What you wrote was: ‘as educators, we must be aware of societal constructs that we may unintentionally perpetuate and so limit learners perceptions of themselves. Fairy tales are not fixed. Neither are learners minds. Neuroplasticity could be used as a teaching tool.’ And then you write about equilibrium. You said ‘Equilibrium: every story we share as educators starts with equity, and equality weaves through the happily ever after.’ I mean, it’s really powerful stuff there and I love what you’re writing about. I was just wondering from your point of view, could you expand a bit more on these takeaways and tell us why they’re so important to you.

00:15:26:20 – 00:19:01:18
Kiran
Well, yeah, okay. I’ll go a bit personal, I suppose. I don’t know, Yamina, if you’d be able to say, I don’t know, echo some of it, but I think my, growing up, I have two sisters. So me and my little sister, we’ve been raised by single mom. And I couldn’t wish for a better role model if I’m honest. But culturally, there were a lot of things that were negatively imposed on her, I suppose, to the point where they couldn’t believe how she was raising me and my sister. To just be humans, it had nothing to do with gender. But from my understanding and my perceptions and my experience of the cultural norms that were around us at the time, we weren’t meant to be having an education. We weren’t meant to think for ourselves, we weren’t meant to question, we weren’t meant to challenge. Whereas Mum instilled that in us very early on and to the point where she’d walked away from her family. So when I think of family, it’s me, my mum and my sister and then the friends in the community that you build around you from that. So I think growing up with a single mom being as strong as she was to sort of challenge that and say, no, it’s not right, my girls do deserve an education and my girls do deserve to think for themselves. And I know I’m very assertive. I know I can be quite mouthy as well. But in a good way to the point where I’m in service to the girls and the young people that I’m serving and the fact that I’m going to Africa again. So, I mean, she had kittens the first time I went by myself, but she instills that in me. So it was my second year teaching. I really wanted to go to Tanzania to teach. But it is that bravery that she probably didn’t realise that she was doing at the time. That that was instilled in me from a very young age. And it’s something that I want to make sure that every child, every boy and girl, especially girls. And what I’ve noticed throughout my career and obviously becoming assistant headteacher now is that I didn’t have many role models growing up. Of a certain race or ethnicity to me, and I’m very mixed anyway. So even finding someone who represents who you are was difficult. But it came down to that idea of it doesn’t really matter about appearance or anything else. It matters about your core. And that’s something that needs to be instilled in the young girls, especially because there are still too many messages about what they look like and how they should look. For me, it scares me because I think it should never be about that. It should always come down to your core and it comes down to mind and it comes down to heart and it comes down to making sure you’re questioning things around you. Because if they don’t feel right for you or they don’t seem fair, then you should have a voice to question it. I think that’s why it was so important to write it the way that I had, because she did, my mum did disrupt the equilibrium for us from a cultural perspective. And yet I know my life could have been very, very different if she didn’t do what she did for me and my sister and what she’s doing for herself as well. So she wasn’t allowed to get an education when she was younger. And it was that idea you get married, you have your kids and that’s it. And that’s scary to think that it’s still happening. It is still happening. And it’s not to say it’s wrong, I know it’s a cultural thing to a certain degree, but when you mix it up with gendered assertions and gendered assumptions, it can be damaging. So, I don’t know if that answered it, I wasn’t expecting to get personal.

00:19:02:13 – 00:19:39:14
Yamina
No, Kiran you always move me to tears every time you speak honestly, what do you to me. I think so much of what you’ve said has really resonated with me and it will resonate with a lot of our listeners and it’s just so empowering the way you spoke about that and really your manifesto and your commitment to the manifesto is also really empowering. And you say you want us to share stories that create curiosity, not conventionality, and think what if. So, Nick and I were really curious to know more about your commitment to the manifesto and how you want to galvanise actions from the reader and our listeners, today.

00:19:40:12 – 00:22:00:13
Kiran
I think always start with the literature in your classroom if I’m honest, I think it’s an easy way to open up conversations in a safe way. And again, I mean, everyone knows which one is my classroom because they see the books on display. So I have Interstellar Cinderella. I have Old Tales for Boys. You can see straight away that I am making sure that we are disrupting the narratives that are there and it’s nothing to take away from those archetypes because there’s lots of literary value in them, absolutely, in the way that you engage readers interest. If we are thinking about it from a social point of view and wanting to have our children have an open mind. The whole point of education is to have an open mind. And the easiest way to start with is through literature and then obviously through the Diverse Educators: A Manifesto book, because there’s loads of links and loads of resources there as well. And I definitely think more needs to be done in terms of initial teacher training as well, that we are enabling the younger teachers coming through. And I do, I don’t know if you know, but I think in terms of retention probably would help because, I don’t know about you two, but it has to start with your why, it has to start with the purpose of what are you doing this job for. And I think the diverse manifesto definitely enables you to get back to that core reason of why we’re doing this job. So for me, literature in terms of what you are sharing with the children and there are a range of diverse fairy tales now and they’re becoming more inclusive as well. And I’m not just talking about different families and all of that, I’m talking about disabilities and what does that mean as well in terms of, I mean, when you think about certain stories as well about single mothers, because it did get on my nerves growing up, like, there were always alcoholic or depressed or something. That isn’t a great representation. And actually, again, it’s limiting the idea. Claire Price’s chapter is really powerful in the sense that she goes all out about lone parents and things like that. So I think literature for children and being brave enough to have that literature in your classroom. And role model how you would use it, use it as part of your story time, use it as part of your [sodas?], use it as part of your reading lessons. Then literature for staff as well, which I think starts with this book.

00:22:01:03 – 00:22:35:08
Nick
Your points are just brilliant, Kiran. Yamina and I are nodding away. You can’t see because it’s a podcast, but it’s just absolutely fantastic, you know? What you said about stories for young people and the value that that has in the literature is absolutely so essential, isn’t it. It is vital. How great to hear about your classroom. But I would completely echo what you’re saying about the literature for the staff as well, and making sure that staff are aware of some of these assumptions and what’s going on and how we can challenge it. It’s just absolutely vital. So thank you so much. And yeah, your ideas about the why as well, just fabulous. We could talk about this forever.

00:22:35:14 – 00:23:26:01
Nick
Something I was really interested in in your chapter and I think it kind of builds a little bit on what you were just saying there was you spoke about the dialogic space and that was a really important way for you to interrogate what you noticed about the assumptions that some of the young people were having. And you said that dialogic space emerged, which enabled the children to question their own assumptions about gender. I mean, the work you’re doing is obviously so valuable for children of all genders that, you know, whether they’re male, female, non-binary, it’s really clear that you’re being aware of how those assumptions can be really damaging and you’re challenging them. And I was just wondering if you’d be able to maybe tell us a little bit about why such dialogic spaces are so meaningful and perhaps give some advice to educators that are also hoping to encourage young people to interrogate some of those assumptions.

00:23:27:06 – 00:27:24:27
Kiran
Dialogic spaces are, it’s giving ownership to the children’s voices. I think that the key thing that you do as a teacher is facilitate the discussion. And again, you have to be brave enough to then just let it be in terms of what will happen from that conversation and how you obviously manage it. But I think it’s definitely the time of day, the time of year, getting relationships is key. You need to know your children. And it might be like, I did that with the whole class. But if it was a different class, it might be that I do it in a different way where we do as part of circle time, it’s not a thing anymore, but sort of having those times and it’s important work and we have to teach the curriculum and stuff like that. But the fact is that this is what learning is about as well. It’s about that whole child. So I think definitely knowing your children first and foremost is essential because it might not be wise to do it a whole class to begin with, and you just do it as groups first. And I think it’s about picking up on what the children are saying and how they’re behaving towards each other. I think that one class will always stay with me because I had, they were stereotypical children. They were stereotypical of their gender. I mean, it scared me to the point where these are going to limit you in terms of your relationships as well. And you don’t want to preempt things, but you have to be real, you have to be real. And the schools I’ve worked in, you have to be real about it. And so it was giving them the tools to understand their emotions because a lot of the boys, they thought anger was it, that that’s the emotion that I have to feel, and it makes you a man and the rest of it. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. No. It’s that. And it’s again. I was, you know, the families were on board with it as well. I had had letters sent to me when I left the school as well, because the parents were grateful that someone was brave enough to challenge these assumptions. And yes, I think it’s been being brave, but it’s making sure that you’re giving the children ownership. And I think of a dialogic space. It’s about giving them ownership of what they’re saying and giving them the responsibility as well, because they need to understand that their words have power. And if it’s kind or unkind. So the point is that you have power in what you’re saying and it’s about being responsible with that power. But if you don’t enable them to speak freely then they’re never actually going to exercise that power in a responsible way. And that’s what I find, because especially with the boys, once they realised what they were thinking and how they were seeing it. And I think my reaction probably gave a lot of it away because I was completely shocked by what they were coming out with. It was like L’Oreal and Hairspray and pink, and it was perfect. That was the word that I was like girls are not meant to be perfect. No one is. But if that’s the assumption you have as a boy, my goodness, that’s going to limit you in many ways as well when you see, regardless of gender, when you’re used to seeing other people. And so it was I think my reaction probably enabled them a little bit as well because I thought this, if this is what you’re thinking and you think this is okay to think that way, and then it was, it was then turning it on. So we did the same with the boys. So I asked the girls, What do you think of, What do you think of when you think of the word boy? And that was shocking. Boys shouldn’t cry. They should not cry at all. And again, it was the boys were like, well, that’s a bit unfair. So I think it’s that. The dialogic space from my perspective, from my understanding of it because you’re not going to get anywhere otherwise. So I think it’s ownership. It’s making sure the children own what they say and understand that they have power in what they’re saying. And then enabling them to reflect on what is the action, what is the meaning of what they’re saying as well, because words are powerful and people perceive them in different ways, but you need to be intentional about what you’re saying. It’s preempting it, just preempting what could be. And what if.

00:27:26:21 – 00:27:57:04
Yamina
I love that idea of words are powerful. I think we know that’s really, really important. And actually, in your chapter I really noticed, I know you shared this particular quote that really stood out to me. Diversifying the narrative in our classrooms is essential to enable impactful and constant renewal of archetypal narratives. I wondered if you could share perhaps more about why it’s so important to diversify the narrative in our classrooms, particularly in challenging those archetypal narratives which you’ve touched upon earlier.

00:27:58:22 – 00:29:42:01
Kiran
So it doesn’t limit anything, so it doesn’t limit possibility. I think if you look at that program on the BBC, about no more girls, no more boys. And the idea that some of these archetypes, they do limit what the children perceive they can do. I think it’s that really in a nutshell, that it’s important to diversify and to keep renewing it because ideas are meant to change. We are meant to evolve as people and ideas are meant to evolve as well. And I think I started with Snow White in 1937, because that was the idea of gender at that point. I think moving forward into, you know, the Disney princesses that we have now, we have so much more diversity as well. And you know, Tiana and Moana. And it’s that idea that this is a normal thing as well. Humans evolve, ideas evolve. And it’s important that children understand that. And I think it’s, there’s nothing wrong with those archetypal narratives in terms of the story and things. And in terms of curriculum, they are, they’re good for the mechanics of what you trying to teach children. But I think it can verge on laziness if you don’t update that bank of ideas, those banks of possibilities because then you just see, I don’t think you’re doing the children a favour there. And it’s. All well and good having the archetypes, but you need to make sure that you are enabling the children to see that things are meant to evolve and that’s only going to have a better impact on their, you know, what they can do in terms of their writing, in terms of their reading in terms of their ideas, in terms of their learning, because it can be a bit lazy to just do that. I will say it.

00:29:43:16 – 00:30:00:21
Nick
No, I’m glad you said it. I think it’s important to say it. And you were speaking about some of the changes there that need to happen in terms of the curriculum evolving and what other changes would you like to see happen in the school system regarding the protected characteristic of marriage and civil partnership?

00:30:01:27 – 00:32:27:00
Yamina
I mean, there are two things, I think. Role models, obviously, I think with any DEI work, you have to go deep and that will make you uncomfortable. And I think role models are crucial because you have that window of time in a child’s life. And they do, they take it on board, what your role modelling to them. I think it is crucial for schools to be doing DEI work to ensure that they are, they’re being real with themselves as well. Are they role modelling the limiting assumptions that are there in front of the children on a day to day basis that they come in contact with through social media and things like that. So I do think deep work needs to be done about challenging who you are and are you showing up as the best role model that you can be for the learners? Because children pick up on everything and without realising, little things that you do, little things that you say. And how you assert yourself as well. And I think especially for women. But again, I think there does need to be some structural changes to the education system anyway, because it’s ironic that I’ve heard stories throughout my career about mothers, especially, who feel that they’re doing more for the children in their class, rather than their own children. And with that comes lots of other issues as well, like the mum guilt and things like that which should not be a thing. But I think flexibility is something that needs to start growing within our system because I think that’s that’s an issue for attention, but not just for women, for fathers as well. Because, again, what sort of role modelling are we giving children when we’re saying that their dad can take only two weeks off for paternity, and yet both should really be primary care givers. And again, that’s a gendered assumption right there that the man will just go back to work. What is it that we’re trying to teach our children? So I think there has to be changes in the system as well to enable this inclusive understanding of what marriage and civil partnership is. At the moment, it’s still very patriarchal in the way that it is and it’s still very Victorian era. I mean, the timetables to a certain degree is still a Victorian era. I think that comes down to being brave. We’ve got to be brave.

00:32:28:24 – 00:32:43:15
Yamina
I love that, and talking about being brave, in an ideal world Nick and I want to ask, what changes would you like to see happen in wider society then outside the school system? In wider society, what changes would you like to see happen?

00:32:43:15 – 00:33:55:03
Kiran
Honestly, just question more. I think, don’t take everything at face value, to question it. And I think it comes down to knowing who you are as well. I think. There are a lot of things that are sort of like a blanket view of this is what gender is or this is what it means to be this type of person or this type of person. And I think it’s easy to sort of just go along with it without realising whether that’s right for you or not. And so I think it’s more about inner work. I just wish more people would do the inner work because I think what’s being projected outwards is there’s certain norms that are being projected outwards that are limiting. And I always go back to children because that why you do it, it’s limiting what they can see in themselves. So I think I just wish more people would do the inner work and I think that the book especially invites you to do that. If you’re reading this book and you read it intentionally, you have to do inner work, you have to and then be intentional with what you’re projecting outwards. Because it’s your responsibility. And I think that it’s easy to sort of go with systems and things like that because it’s the way it is and I think we need to question that.

00:33:56:23 – 00:34:45:12
Nick
I’m sure that will resonate with a lot of people. It certainly has with me this morning and to hear about the personal and why, you know, individuals can do some of that inner work as well is just fantastic. So a big thank you from me for that. I’ve certainly found it interesting and I just wanted to say a big thank you as well for talking about your students so powerfully. And you’ve been really personal in terms of the work that you’ve been talking about there, but also for those students and I’m sure it will resonate with a lot of people the way you’ve thought about what it’s like for young people, boys, girls, non-binary children, you know, whatever their own experiences are and you’ve certainly encouraged people to question things today and that conversation so yeah been absolutely fantastic to speak to your obviously amazing and you’re obviously doing great work and I just wanted to say a big thank you. Thank you very much for joining us.

00:34:45:29 – 00:34:55:15
Yamina
Thank you so much Kiran for being with us. We’ve been Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi, the co-hosts of the Diverse Ed podcast.

[Outro Music]

00:34:55:15 – 00:35:11:26
Hannah
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Diverse Educators Podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think so do leave us a review. We’ll be back soon with another author from our book Diverse Educators: A Manifesto.

[Outro Music]

00:08:11 – 01:02:25
Hannah Wilson
Welcome to the #DiverseEd podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: everyone is celebrated in every classroom in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies and stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series one of the #DiverseEd podcast. We have ten episodes. In each episode, our co-hosts Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, show the challenges they’ve had to navigate on their journey, and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

01:05:06 – 01:18:01
Nick
Okay. Hello everyone and welcome to the #DiverseEd Podcast. My name is Nick Kitchener-Bentley and I am a lead practitioner and drama / inclusion teacher at Sarah Bonnell School. I am also on the steering group for LGBTed.

01:18:15 – 01:29:12
Yamina
And I’m Yamina Bibi and I’m an assistant head teacher also at Sarah Bonnell school. I’m also a network leader for WomenEd in London. In this episode, we’ll be talking to Cleo from the Pregnancy and Maternity chapter.

01:30:02 – 01:41:19
Nick
Okay. So Cleo, one of the things that we like to do at the start is just get people to introduce themselves to the audience in one sentence. So could we ask you to do that, Cleo? Just let us know who you are in one sentence please.

01:42:11 – 01:48:11
Cleo
Sure. I’m Cleo de Jong. I am soon to be a deputy headteacher in North London and a mum of two.

01:49:02 – 01:56:20
Yamina
Amazing. Congratulations, by the way. What inspired you to write your contribution to Diverse Educators: A Manifesto, Cleo?

01:57:21 – 02:31:09
Cleo
I think it is two things. Firstly, the trauma, which I think it was of having my first child and parachuting back into a leadership role and then having my second child and really having the space and time to appreciate the impact of having a network to support you. So I really took advantage of kind of being on Twitter and making connections in that way. And so just wanted to publicise how important that network is and just reach out so that more people have access.

02:31:28 – 02:47:28
Nick
Thanks for that, Cleo. I completely echo with what you’re saying about the idea of a network I think it’s really important, isn’t it and it can do so much when you have that and thinking about what other people think as well. We were really interested, if you could maybe tell us about some of the different themes that your whole chapter team were interested in exploring.

02:48:25 – 03:44:08
Cleo
So I think most generally it’s that flexibility element of teaching. Just trying to explore why it’s not more standard practice in schools. And then secondly, I think is just the visibility of parent teachers, people really celebrating and showcasing that it is possible. It’s hard. There’s no denying that. But I think so many teachers work in schools where you’re not quite sure who the parents are, or people might downplay it for fear that they don’t want you to think that something’s being compromised, because that’s sometimes the assumption that can be made. If someone says their mum. And so I think there are lots of elements of that throughout the chapter of just saying, you know, not only am I a parent and a leader, but it’s something everyone else can look up to and do as well.

03:45:10 – 03:54:12
Yamina
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that and building on that. What would you say are the key challenges for people with this protected characteristic that your team really wanted to address?

03:55:09 – 05:39:02
Cleo
I think it’s the flexibility and sometimes I feel bad thinking that, you know, it’s only parents that should get that flexibility because it isn’t. There are lots of people who might be carers. I spoke to an ex-colleague just last week, he has been given flexibility so she can attend a yoga class on a Friday morning. And it doesn’t impact her lessons, she’s not a parent, but it has an enormous impact on her wellbeing and working in this really talented school. And so I think that that is a massive takeaway is not only that the flexibility be written into the policies within the school, but that it is readily celebrated and advertised to the people that work there so that they don’t feel bad asking for it. But it’s a standard practice and it’s something that’s promoted and shared with your line manager. When you’re having those line manager meetings, it’s just a given that someone will say to you, this is how our school works. And if that’s something that would help your life to run more smoothly, then please do take advantage of it. And it kind of touches as well upon the fact that, you know, the COVID pandemic allowed us to see that there are other ways of working. And so we should be embracing those. And there’s no reason to think right now. We’re back at school. We kind of get caught up in the presenteeism, which is spoken about quite a lot in the chapter. And the idea that you always have to just be seen. And we know that there are lots of staff who work from the moment school opens, the moment school closes, but aren’t particularly effective in what they do. And so it’s the idea that there are also going to be some staff who don’t need to be onsite at all times that can still deliver really well in their roles.

05:39:22 – 07:02:18
Nick
I really like what you were saying there about making sure that it’s standard practice for everybody and the fact that everyone really benefits from it. And you’re absolutely right, because I think, you know, everybody in education will benefit from some of the flexible approaches that you’re talking about and the idea of flexibility being really, really important. And everybody in school being aware of them. So I think that’s really helpful. I just wanted to thank you for saying that. I wanted to read out some of your key takeaways for the reader that you included at the end of your chapter. Yamina and I found these to be really interesting and I’m sure that everybody listening would really resonate with them. But I just wanted to read them out and then ask you to maybe tell us a little bit why they’re so important to you. And so you write that the importance of support and care starts before someone is pregnant. Ensure the work environment is conducive to facilitate a mentally healthy and well-balanced lifestyle. Becoming a new parent involves a period of adjustment. Recognise this and give colleagues time and flexibility to accommodate their new personal role into their already established professional role. Encourage staff to consider how a flexible work arrangement may benefit them so that it is something that is celebrated and not seen as a minimisation of their role. I mean, that’s so important isn’t it. It’s absolutely essential. I was just wondering if you wouldn’t mind expanding a little bit on those takeaways and telling us a little bit more about why they’re so important to you.

07:03:14 – 12:49:05
Cleo
Sure. So I think if I start with the first one, just in terms of the importance of that support and care, and I speak about it in my chapter, just kind of my fertility journey and the challenges that I went through. When I think about my time at that school, at no point was any information given to me really about what could be offered from the school. I don’t know about you guys, but, you know, I don’t spend the first couple of weeks I join a school going through every policy on the website. So I don’t know how many teachers do. So, to assume that staff will know that something exists because it’s in a policy I don’t think is good enough. These characteristics are protected for a reason, right? It’s because people from these groups are discriminated against. And so I think the school has a duty to address them explicitly and directly with staff, to say that this is how we as a school will support you if you belong to this group and so if you belong to the group. You’re considering going for fertility treatment, you’re considering adoption. Any of these things wrapped up in parenting, I think the school has a duty to all staff to say, here are the very specific ways that we are very, very happy to support you on that journey. It shouldn’t be down to staff to kind of think, oh, I wonder if they’ll let me have a bit of time in the morning to drop my child off for settling in, or will they allow me some time off to go and get my fertility injections or, you know, because that creates its own anxiety. And like you said before, you don’t want an anxious teacher in the classroom so it will benefit your staff if they can be reassured from the get go that this is something that you will support them with instead of, you know, feeling distracted by these thoughts that are going to be running around in their heads regardless of whether you bring them up or not. So, we just have a duty of care as leaders to provide that reassurance and then I think the second key takeaway that you spoke about just in terms of the shock, I think it is of becoming a new parent. For me, anyway, it was a real shock. I’d, up until that point, been a real stereotypical person in my twenties like loving life driving down to Soho just to get to get desert 10:00 at night just ridiculous things you can do when you’re just carefree. Without a care in the world and I’d just also come back from living in Thailand. So that kind of amplified that kind of life even more. We were like jumping on speedboats to get cocktails at the weekend, and it was just ridiculous. And then I got back and within about three or four months of coming back home. I had the baby and I was like, oh my goodness, this is absolutely crazy. I’ve got this person that is literally relying on me to stay alive. And in my head I thought beforehand that, oh, I was like, I was like a hardcore raver. I could stay up all night. Having a baby, that’s light work for me. I know what that was like I used to go straight from the club and go to work at my part time role at JDs when I was 19. I can do that. Have a baby and you’re like, oh my god, this isn’t the same, this isn’t the same. And so, you’re kind of coming to terms with that realisation. Well, I was. And then ten months into it, I started a new role at a new school, a new position, you know, part of SLT, I was still breastfeeding as well at the time. So it was just a lot of things that I was trying to manage, you know, trying to juggle in my head. And like I said, because at that time, no one had explicitly said, like they knew I was a mum, had said, right, we know you’re a mum. Here’s all the stuff that we do to look after you. Here’s all the stuff that we will provide. Here are all the ways we can support you. So please don’t hesitate to ask, you know, because these are the things that we are more than happy to do. No one’s going to judge you for asking for somewhere to go and express or the saying that you need to come in slightly later for a couple of days or weeks because your child isn’t settling well. You know, there are so many things. And so I think it’s that appreciation of what that transition from, from not being a parent to being a parent is actually like. And I think there are lots of people who probably, I’m sure, will handle that transition much better than I did. But then there are those people who are very similar to me who are kind of at the pinnacle of hedonism or whatever it is. And just crashed, crashed into the reality of thinking, whoa, whoa, I have to pick someone up at definite time or someone calls me or they charge me or what, you know. There’s a lot there’s a lot to manage. And there’s not necessarily a guide for that. And there are lots of books you can read, but I think before this book, before Diverse Ed: A Manifesto, there wasn’t necessarily a book for educators to say, here’s how you… You know, there’s sleep training books, there’s weaning books. But the bit that says, we recognise that you’re an educator, we recognise that you’re a leader and here are ways that you can maybe frame a conversation with your line manager or here are things that other people in your position have been able to take advantage of or benefit from. That you may feel helpful support with, you know.

12:49:05 – 13:10:04
Yamina
I found all of that hilarious, but also very accurate. I think of all the parents I talked to. I just want to ask a follow up question on what you said, Cleo, you talked about the school having a duty of care towards parents and all staff. How do you think effective induction processes could incorporate and support parent teachers who are perhaps new to the school and to the system?

13:11:03 – 15:01:03
Cleo
I think, and again, I think it’s kind of all the protected characteristics, isn’t it? I think we fill that form in at the back of the application form, the school has this information. Right. And, and like I said, my school anyway certainly has the information about which teachers are parents. And so it could just be like, you know, we have carousels on Inset Day sometimes. And one of those carousels could be dedicated to protected characteristics. And so if you feel that you belong to one of these protected characteristics, go to this room and you will learn all the ways that our school supports that characteristic and so, for me, pregnancy and maternity, I would go there and they could tell me, we give you sports day off, we give you a room if you need this. If you’re trying to conceive, we are happy for you to take mornings off to go for your injections. It could just be that and then it’s bespoke isn’t it? It means that someone who isn’t interested in that chaos doesn’t go to that room and they perhaps go to the room in which you find out how the school supports people from the LGBTQ+ community. And it could be we, we celebrate pride day, we take our children on a march, you can get involved in that, we ensure that any homophobic bullying is zero tolerance and you know, we deal with it quite fiercely and our sanctions are severe, you know, and so that then allows that person from day one to think, yeah, I feel like I can work here. I feel like this is somewhere that sees me and is actually making the necessary adjustments to make sure I feel comfortable in this place. And so and by me feeling comfortable, by me feeling that I belong here, you will no doubt thrive and show up as your best self, you know, because you think, well, actually, these are people that appreciate what it means to be me. And so I’m going to give back as much as I can as well just to say thank you.

15:01:24 – 15:05:21
Yamina
I love that idea. I don’t know about you Nick but it definitely got my mind swirling.

15:07:17 – 15:27:02
Nick
Absolutely. Like how important to be able to hear all the things that would be helpful for you as an educator and that are going to be beneficial to you. I’m sure those kind of conversations happening right at the start are going to, yeah, it will be so useful for different people. So yeah, thanks for sharing that and I’m sure everyone is listening will take note because it’s a really great idea.

15:27:13 – 15:44:25
Yamina
Really great idea. Thank you for that, Cleo. So your manifesto commitment is to provide parent teachers with a framework for requesting support which is fully celebrated with the ethos and culture of the school before and throughout the parenting journey begins. Can you tell us more about it and how you want to galvanise action from your readers and listeners?

15:46:08 – 18:57:10
Cleo
So I think, like I said before, you know, I think it goes beyond just having a maternity and pregnancy policy that’s, you know, maybe 30 pages long that you can’t be sure that staff are engaging with. And I think someone touched upon it in one of the sections of this chapter where you just have like a checklist. And so if the person that you’re line managing informs you that they’re going through, you know, that pregnancy journey, you have some key things that you would just go through with them just to say, like, do you know about this? Do you know about this? Do you need help with this, here is something that I found helpful. I think also is that celebration of it so that everyone knows. I think sometimes, like I said before, there is the idea that you can’t balance them both and you can’t do your job effectively if you’re thinking about, you know, school pick ups and childcare costs and, you know, you’ve got packed lunches, you can’t, and actually of course you can. And if anything, you can probably do it better than you were doing it before. You know because you’ve developed some new skills. You’ve had to, you’ve had to develop some new skills to navigate life. And it would be impossible for you not to transfer those skills. I know certainly for me, becoming a mother has made me a far more empathetic teacher. And so before I kind of just bulldozed my way through school, getting stuff done, you know, I’ve got to get these kids their grades and I’ve got to make sure, it’s their right to get these things. And now I am far more patient. And where I am able to, have the time to really speak to students on a 1 to 1 and appreciate them as individuals and appreciate them as someone’s child, which I never, I think, fully appreciated before. In all of my parent meetings now that I have are focused on the parent, you know, I start with how dare you let your mum come here and feel sad? How does your mum feel, you know. Whereas previously I’d be there like how have you raised a kid that does this, you know. Just sworn at a member of my staff, you know, and it and so in those ways is has massively, positively improved my practice and I think that has to be celebrated. And I think if we have more leaders who are confident and have the space to stand up in front of the school and say, these are the ways in which my practice has massively improved since becoming a parent, I think you will have more staff who are worried or apprehensive about the disadvantages, because everyone knows those right? Everyone knows how expensive it is to put your child in nursery, how little sleep you’re going to have, how little control you have over a toddler who’s running around trying to kill themselves, essentially. Right. But it’s about really advertising as well, that there’s loads of really, really cool aspects that enhance who you can be as a teacher and as a leader. And so you just have that forum and space to inform everyone else and then in some way hopefully inspire them if it’s something that they’re unsure about.

18:58:13 – 20:00:21
Nick
You absolutely are inspirational. It’s so good to talk to you. You are, you’re amazing. And the passion that you’re talking with is just so, so great to hear. And I know that so many people who are listening will take a lot from it. So thank you so much for that. And I suppose this is a link point to some of what you’re saying there, you’re speaking about empathy and how important that is. And you were also talking about the fact that there are many positive skills that are being kind of brought through people being parents and carers and that’s really, really essential isn’t it. And we noticed that in your chat to Cleo one of the questions that you asked was really, really important. You asked the question, how is empathy celebrated? And I thought that was such a good question. I think the idea of actually celebrating empathy and making it an important part of what goes on in a school is just so, so important. So I was wondering if you could maybe expand a little bit upon that in terms of thinking about what it means. Could you maybe tell us about what empathy looks like in education settings and why you think it needs to be celebrated?

20:00:21 – 25:18:27
Cleo
So I think and I like I say, I learned this early on in my parenting journey and actually a little bit before. So, I spoke before about the fact that I lived in Thailand for a while. And when we were in Thailand, part of our induction in that school was that they put us all into minibus and we lived in the the sex capital of Southeast Asia. And so they put us into this minibus and drove us around so we could see where a lot of our students were coming from. And whilst it was a independent school, so it meant that lots of our students, their parents actually owned a lot of these bars and clubs. It was not that they were working in them, but some of them, sadly, that’s how, you know, their parents had met. So their mums had started life in some of those bars. But it completely gives you a, a different appreciation for the children that you have in front of you and so when I came, when I joined my last school, it was something that I did. I put all the teachers in a minibus and I drove them round to some of these estates that our children had come from because, it’s really weird even saying it. But in the schools that I worked in there have been very few people who are even from London, let alone from the local area where my schools have been. And so if you are coming from Surrey or Hampshire or Hull or somewhere else, you maybe do not have a clear concept of what it’s like to grow up in a in an inner-city estate in London. And what that looks like, like what, how is that manifested, how is that real for our children? What does that mean for them when they’re kind of stepping over needles or when there’s a high police presence or when the only shops that they can quickly get to, unfortunately, don’t serve fresh food. They are the corner shop that sells alcohol and sweets and the chicken shop and the betting shop, you know, that’s what their local council have decided that community needs and so I don’t want you in a meeting as staff making, you know, inappropriate comments or making inappropriate judgments on children if you’re not aware of the circumstances. And yet I’m aware that my responsibility as a leader is to make you aware of the circumstances so that you can develop that empathy. Otherwise, how could you know, how could you possibly know what life is like for some of these children and why we must have patience with them. If you were coming from that situation, perhaps you might swear at me if I asked you something ridiculous that was the least of your worries today. If you’ve got a mum who has been suffering from long term mental health issues and she’s locked herself in a room for the last two days over the weekend. And your teachers ask, why don’t you have a pen? Of course, you know. Even the calmest of adults would be affronted by something like that. You speak to staff sometimes in the morning. You’ve had to sit in traffic jams on the M1. You come in grumpy and I think sometimes as adults we find it so much easier to have patience and empathy for our colleagues and then for kids you know, they’re not finished. Our patience is sometimes very short and we think oh they should just know. How on earth would they know. And again, I’ve gone on a tangent there, but in relation to being a new mum like how do we know as new mums, how would I know, how would I know that this is something that I should ask for and not feel bad about because I missed it and there will be so many mums who’ve missed like really key important parts of their child’s development because they just didn’t know it was something they could ask for, they didn’t know it was something they were entitled to. The number of mums I’ve spoken to even recently who didn’t even know what kit days were and didn’t know what they were about. And I wasn’t fortunate enough to have them the first time round because I’ve just come back from living abroad. So the second time you can believe I took all ten. They were the best thing ever. And I really looked forward to them and I used them to teach some classes that I hadn’t met, you know, they were brilliant. I was like, when I found out, ten days, yeah I’ll spread those out, I’ll do one a week. It was a really nice way to keep in touch, but like I say, you don’t know what you don’t know. Staff need to, again, we trained on that and once I think people do know once leaders do know this is what people are going through and this is a situation, how can we show them care and compassion and most of the time they do. And that’s why I think this book is amazing because it is providing that knowledge, isn’t it? It’s providing that lack of excuse now to say, oh, I didn’t know that people thought this. You know, it’s like, come on, read, you know, once you’ve read, act, it’s looking at these avenues to help people develop empathy and not just assume that they will just have it.

25:20:07 – 25:49:21
Yamina
Yes. Thank you so much. So brilliant. I could listen to you Cleo all day. So what you said in the chapter about how you you know, you as somebody who embraced the trope of being the strong, limitless woman. And so the idea of the change that came with your circumstances required essentially a change in operation that wasn’t something that you were comfortable with or sat well with you. What advice do you then have for those colleagues who might be in the same circumstances? And how did you become more comfortable with your changing circumstances?

25:51:08 – 28:39:22
Cleo
I think it is about reevaluating the idea of strength. And I think you grow up, particularly if you’re from, I think, ethnic backgrounds where you can’t show your vulnerability and you just get on with it. Like no matter what happens, you’re always kind of told, just get on with it. And we would have had parents. This probably could be small things. like oh Mum I’ve got a tummy ache, you’re just told have some water and go to sleep because your just supposed to get on with it, aren’t you? And so I think my idea of what strength is just really changed because I thought actually no, I need to have the strength to say this isn’t okay. And my strength now is having the confidence to speak up and say, this isn’t okay. This is what I need to ensure that I can do my job effectively. I know what doing my job effectively is like. I know what it means when I’m able to perform at the highest level. And I can’t do it in these conditions, but I want to do it, right. And so as a parent, if I am, and I’m going to be doing this in a couple of weeks because my second child will be starting nursery in September. But if I have to drop her off at nursery, she’s screaming and I’m having to think in my head. I’ve got to get to school. I’ve got to be there for duty at 825 and I’m trying to slam the door of the nursery and run back in my car. And I’m upset. I’m stressed that, you know, no one is happy. No one’s going to be working well then. And so now my strength is being able to say, right, well, I need to speak to my head teacher and say my my two year old is starting nursery. I don’t know what it’s going to be like. And so, what adjustments can be made for me to ensure that when I show up for school, I can show up for me because I want to, I want to show up, I’m new to your school. I want everyone to think, oh, Cleo is impressive, not look at me and think, Oh, why does Cleo look like she’s about to cry? Or why does Cleo look stressed and distracted? Because I’m thinking about my two year old feeling abandoned. And so it works for everyone, doesn’t it? And and again, it’s knowing that that is strength. That is me showing up for myself, isn’t it. And not just thinking oh, it’s just something we have to get on with, you know, no I want to be able to do my job well and I want to be able to do both of my jobs well, which is, you know, leading in a school. But also being someone’s mum, I need to make sure that I’m performing highly at that level, too, and making sure that neither thing gets compromised as much as possible.

28:40:28 – 29:09:04
Nick
I love that description of it. It’s almost like you’ve redefined what strength is. You’ve redefined strength on your own terms to balance it in terms of what it means for you as a parent and as a leader as well in the school. And I just yeah, I just love hearing that. So thank you for that. We wanted to kind of broaden things out a little bit as well in terms of our discussion. In an ideal world, what kind of changes would you like to see happen in the school system regarding the protected characteristic of pregnancy and maternity?

29:10:11 – 32:41:10
Cleo
I think it’s spoken about throughout the chapter, but I think the main thing is just this presenteeism. Just knowing that staff deserve and should be entitled to and should not feel bad about having flexible hours because almost all staff are committed. You know, you don’t go through the process of writing these lengthy personal statements, and particularly at a leadership level, going through two days of interviews and panels and presentations. No one is going to go through that to then not perform at their best. And if someone has gone through that, has been successful, wants to do their very best, I think the least that the school can do is offer them the flexibility where they need it and trust that they will perform their job well, that they’re not requesting this flexibility to get out of doing the work. They’re actually requesting it so they can do the work better, right? So that they can feel fully committed and fully aware and fully alert to the various pulls and tugs on their demands and attribute their time accordingly. I think that is the biggest thing, that should be and I don’t want to say it should be a selling point because then it’s like it’s a USP for different schools and it shouldn’t be it should just be the standard practice that everyone just gets comfortable knowing is available. And even I’ve been fortunate enough that my last school had it and my current school I’m going to, you know, one of the things the head teacher said was, you know, I’m very aware that we spend a lot of time trying to help people raise their children, but lots of us have our own children to raise. And that’s a lovely thing for your head teacher to say the first time I met her and, you know, my husband, his school, he works part time and at no point has he been judged for making that decision. He’s allowed to do it. He’s still been offered TLR opportunities. No one said, you know, you can’t go for this extra opportunity because you’re only here four days a week. And yet he’s honestly, I think he’s one of those role models for working part time because he makes sure on that day he is off, he is off and he dedicates that time to our two year old and they do like really cool stuff and it’s so lovely that I get to then go through my day and I’ll see pictures of them at the park and at soft play and you know, and I know so many parents who do work part time and then spend that day marking or spend that day planning for the following day. And I’m like, you need to speak to my husband. He’ll teach you. That school’s a kind of like, you know, I will give you these part time hours to help you with your workload, and then staff feel like, oh, maybe that’s what I do in that part time. I catch up on the workload and it’s like, well, no, that’s not what I wanted it for. I wanted it so that I can have that dedicated time to my child so that when I then turn up to school, I can dedicate my time to my role and I don’t need to feel bad. That either thing has been compromised. So I think it’s that standard practice and trust that flexible working is important and that if anything, it will really amplify the work that people are able to do for your school.

32:42:21 – 32:55:06
Yamina
That’s brilliant. Thank you so much. That was so diverse in what you were saying as well, I think. But it we were to broaden it out even more, Nick and I were wondering, in an ideal world, what changes would you like to see happen in wider society then?

32:57:02 – 36:47:09
Cleo
Wow, gosh, you look at the stats in this chapter about, you know, all the women dropping out of education, of teaching in between 30 and 39 a bracket that unfortunately I’m not in anymore, two years shy . I know. But you just think in wider society is that perception of mothers and the responsibility that is assumed that we should take on. And I still kind of, I had like my dad staying with me the last couple of months and I’ll say to my dad, I’m going out for a meal and he’ll say, Oh, what’s happening with the kids? What? they’re dad’s here. What do you mean?. I don’t know what’ happening with them. I’m off. And I know like, you know, it’s my dad is, he’s in his 60s. But there are people who are much younger who still just have that assumption that it’s the mum that has to figure everything out and juggle everything and worry about oh they’re with their dad. Are they going to be fed lunch or is he going to remember that she needs this? No, he’s their dad. If he doesn’t remember, he should feel bad that he didn’t remember. It’s not my responsibility to remind another fully grown adult who is equally responsible for these children of the things that they’re supposed to do. And I think as a wider society, we’ve still got so much way to go with that, with people like I saw people who are really even shocked that my kids are equally excited when their dad turns up as they are when I turn up because they’re so conditioned to thinking that kids always will be with their mums. Oh, mums here. But they say where’s daddy? I want daddy. Awesome. Balance those requirements out? You’ve fallen down, sometimes dad can find your plaster too. And so it is a wider societal issue of that responsibility that mums specifically have and people are so comfortable with them having it. And I think from the beginning I have, I’ve just been uncomfortable with it and I’m fortunate to be in a marriage in which my husband is also, you know, very willing to share it and he wants to share it and he thinks it’s right that he shares it. And he knows that, you know, they’re not more my kids than they are his I will call the trump card, sometimes. I carried them in my stomach. That’s why I deserve to go out more evenings than you. But they are both of ours and so everything should just be equal, I shouldn’t just be the one worrying about childcare. He has to worry about childcare. And so it’s just there’s still, I think, a long way to go. But I think as more parents get in positions of leadership and what leadership looks like, when you look at those stats that so many women make up the core body of teaching and so few of them then make it into headteacher positions or even to senior leadership positions. And then of those, how many of those are going to be parents? Because I didn’t meet any women who were parents until quite late, you know, in the 17 years that I’ve been teaching so far, but until that starts to change and like I say, until that starts to be celebrated and people start to see, oh, wow. Okay, yeah, maybe, maybe her husband’s at home. That’s the thing now isn’t it? Yeah. Moving on. I think that’s the biggest move that we need to make.

36:48:13 – 37:15:17
Nick
Thank you so much, Cleo. You are absolutely brilliant and it’s so good hearing you and not just like your energy and your enthusiasm, but the points you’re making are just essential and really going to resonate with people. So thank you very much. And we just wanted to say kind of at the end, like a massive thank you for joining us today as well, because you’ve given us a lot to think about, loads of amazing ideas and you’ve just really boosted our energy. It’s been amazing. And yeah, you did a really good job. Thank you.

37:16:09 – 37:26:18
Yamina
Thank you so much, Cleo, we’ve loved having you. We’ve been to Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi, the co-hosts of the #DiverseEd podcast

[Outro Music]

37:26:18 – 37:43:01
Hannah Wilson
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the #DiverseEd Podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think so do leave us a review. We’ll be back soon with another author from our book – Diverse Educators: A Manifesto.