[Intro Music]

00:00:08:27 – 00:01:01:05
Hannah
Welcome to the Diverse Ed podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: everyone is celebrated in every classroom in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies the stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series two of the Diverse Educators podcast we have ten episodes. In each episode our co-hosts, Mahlon Evans-Sinclair and Jess Boyd, will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, share the challenges they have had to navigate on their journey and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

00:01:05:05 – 00:01:17:07
Mahlon
Hello and welcome to series two of the Diverse Ed podcast. My name is Mahlon Evans-Sinclair and I’m the founder of Educating While Black podcast and currently the director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at a girl-focused school in Toronto, Canada.

00:01:17:28 – 00:01:34:16
Jess
And I’m Jess Boyd. I’m a former head of music and currently writing my Ph.D. in culturally relevant pedagogy. I work in initial teacher training and I also run an open access community music project. In this episode, we will be talking to Nadine Bernard from the Pregnancy and Maternity chapter.

00:01:35:10 – 00:02:03:00
Mahlon
So, I know that, I’ll put it this way, if you don’t know who Nadine by this point, you need to do some research because Nadine is out there doing a lot of stuff. But if you have happened to miss the bus in terms of how to know Nadine and how to come about knowing Nadine, I want to give Nadine opportunity to introduce herself to you all as listeners. So Nadine, please give us an indication of who you are, how you’ve come to be, and the stuff that you talk about.

00:02:04:19 – 00:02:58:20
Nadine
So my name is Nadine Bernard. I am firstly a mother and a wife and mother of three boys, and I am a headteacher of a primary school in south west London. I’m also the founder and CEO of Aspiring Heads, which is a community interest company, here to tackle racial inequalities in leadership. And we have a flagship program which is about supporting aspiring black leaders to step into those leadership positions. And I am also, I say, part of the 1% of black headteachers, hence why I’m passionate about the work that I do to kind of put that ladder down and help others to come up and give individuals a better toolkit than I ever had.

00:02:59:28 – 00:03:14:22
Jess
I felt like there’s already a million questions I have based on your introduction. But to kick us off then, can you tell us a bit more about the intersections of your identity and how that helped you to contribute your chapter in the book?

00:03:14:22 – 00:04:28:08
Nadine
Yep. So for me, I am black, female. And in terms of I would say, you know, I came from that working class, disadvantaged background. My mum worked really, really hard to ensure that I got the best, the best that she could access for me and that, you know, I owe a lot to my mum for that because I feel like she helped to open a lot of doors for me and helped me to develop the confidence I suppose, that I’ve got now. But that did take a while because I was also that child who was to support. I am dyslexic. And so I struggled a lot throughout my education. My faith, really, I’m a Christian and my faith has helped me to get through, overcome quite a lot in my life, just being able to lean on that when times have been really, really tough. And then knowing that, you know, I have something greater than who I am to support me along the way.

00:04:28:10 – 00:05:20:13
Mahlon
It’s really telling when a person describes how they’ve come to be. It’s kind of held in a sort of, generational understanding. I am because of who I’ve come from and I am because of what I want to give to the future generation going forward. So it really is a nice tie-in to think about the parenting that you had and the approach that you had from your mom. And then think about what you’re now doing as a mom, you started off by saying you are a mother and a wife. So leading on from what Jess just asked you in your response to it, I guess what I’m trying to figure out is from your identity, what was it that you wanted to bring or colour in in terms of the chapter of maternity and pregnancy, what was it that you felt that your contribution would add as a theme for the whole chapter?

00:05:21:06 – 00:06:58:29
Nadine
Yeah. So for me it was, I’m very passionate about mums being acknowledged and recognised that they are more than capable. I think in terms of for me growing up, it’s been a thing of, you know, always being able to get in contact, being able to, you know, hear stories from individuals who felt that they could not achieve or become or do something because they were a mum and for me, I really wanted to show that actually, yes, it is possible. Yeah. Look, I am a mum, I have three children and I have been able to progress my career. I haven’t put a pause on an element of myself and what I want to achieve because I have children. And yes, I think it’s also it’s okay to say I want to pause this or I want to do things this way because you know, at this very moment it is important to me as a mother and so forth. But for me, I just want people to know, you know, you can do either way. There’s no right way. There’s absolutely no right way. And I want people just to understand that it’s all up to what works for you. And this has worked for me and I’ve been able to achieve. And I do not feel that my children have suffered because I’ve held on to my dreams and continue to pursue them.

00:06:59:24 – 00:07:24:16
Jess
Oh, that’s erm. Yes. I mean so many questions I’ve got for you around that as a parent myself, but I’m going to stick to the questions I have first. Can you, you started to allude to it, but you started to get quite passionate there and can you tell us a bit more about the frustrations around pregnancy and maternity that you really wanted to convey to the readers? Because I think there’s something around the passion and frustration around that protected characteristic.

00:07:25:03 – 00:12:56:23
Nadine
Motherhood or say, parenthood, because I don’t think it’s just confined to being a mum, you know, there are fathers, you know, those who have their children and parent very, very well. And there is I feel a super power from being a parent. There are so many skills that I feel that potentially that the education sector kind of disregards. And I think that should really be highlighted. So, for example, my organisational skills, I definitely believe it is a it’s come about even much more because I am a parent and I have to make sure things are organised for me to fulfil my duties well enough and to fill the duties of parenthood, I need to make sure that I’m organised. One thing I always love to boast about is the fact that people see this thing of, oh, you’ve got go home to the kids, no actually what is so amazing about it is that when I go home I have to stop working. It’s not about you know, I no longer flow into that mode of carrying the work home. And I think for many people it’s like with teaching, we know it’s a never ending job. It’s not 9 to 3. You finish for the day. You’re always there’s always more to be done. You know, That list never stops. And so being a parent, I feel it helps to stop me when I go home. I have to pause because I have to support the children with their homework, see how they are, but also because I want to enjoy them as well. So I think there’s so much benefits with being a parent because it just allows you to pause, whereas for some they can just find themselves that constant treadmill when actually kids just force you to stop you in some ways that they kind of, you know, have the reins in terms of when you have to kind of get other things done apart from work related stuff. And I think it’s also helped me to manage my time effectively. So in terms of my career so far, I remember when I had my first child, I decided that I was going to leave work at 4:00 every day, spend time with my children, and then pick up work again at 7:00. And that worked for me at that time, just, you know, just stepping out of the school environment. And I guess what I’m trying to say is, I really want people to acknowledge the benefits of being a parent and how it can actually help you to be a better educator. And I think sometimes there’s a lot of policies and mentalities and ways of thinking where people see or think if someone’s going on maternity leave or someone’s pregnant, oh my gosh, they’re pregnant, what are we going to do? The education system can work it out. I found out I was pregnant with my third child after I secured my headship position. You know, what’s the end of the world? Yeah, I am. Does that mean I can’t then step into my role of headship? Yes, of course I can. No, they can’t sack me. They can’t say no you can’t have the job anymore because you’re pregnant, and they worked things out. I was able to start this job that I’m in, start the process of being head and then they had kind of like an executive person who was around at the time. So they kind of stayed on in the role. Then when I went for my maternity leave, they kind of carried on. And then when I came back, then they were able to kind of let go of the reins and then really hand it over to me. But I think sometimes we can really fall into that thing of what are they going to do. You know, I’ve spoilt everything and nothing can work out. When actually it’s doable, yes, would I have planned to get pregnant, was I planning to get pregnant? No, it was a nice, pleasant surprise but you know, things can work out it’s not, it’s a blessing and a blessing that I was grateful for it. It’s added even more substance to me as a human being because of my third boy. He just keeps me going. Different personality. I’m learning a new way of parenting because not every single child is the same. So every time is a learning curve to go through. And I think it’s actually quite exciting and, you know, as educators, we’re dealing with children all the time we’re interacting with them we’re seeing, we come across lots of different personalities and so forth. So, you know, the experience of parenthood, I think definitely adds to the experience of leading a school.

00:12:57:28 – 00:17:20:17
Mahlon
I think like you’ve just given a wealth of information. The first thing I want to say here, I don’t think well, obviously if you’re listening, you can’t see your facial expressions, but your smiling and the joy that you have when you’re talking about your family, your kids, like it’s palpable, hopefully in voice as well as seeing you. It’s really nice to see that as much as hear it. I guess there’s a reflection that I have to what you’re saying and then there’s a point to it as well. I remember I was leading a department at a school in London, and I remember my deputy came to tell me that she was pregnant. And the way that she told me that she was pregnant was like she was actually apologising her way through, telling me that’s she was pregnant. And the first thing that went through my head was I was kind of more annoyed. And I’ll be specific about the annoyance. The annoyance was someone before me made you feel like the natural thing that happens to you is unnatural. And so you’re apologising to me, a person who can’t get pregnant, won’t get pregnant, will never have to deal with the emotionality of what pregnancy feels like in the body. You’re apologising to me about something that could only happen to you out of the two of us, that would never happen to me. But, and it’s not because it’s a man, because internalised sexism happens within women, too. But somewhere someone has made you feel that this is a thing that you should tread carefully and cautiously about. And it stuck with me, ever since, the idea that you know, that so much decision making that is left to those that can get pregnant to figure out. Right. The idea of do I want to keep the child? Or do I not want to, do I want to tell this person at this point or not, do I want to take that promotion or not take the promotion. The level of stress and pressure that goes with just the thought process of, you know, the arc of pregnancy is wild, and especially for those who would never experience it or can’t ever experience it. I can only look on and imagine what all of those calculations might well be like. So even for what you’ve just described there the idea that you can minimise or it’s better when a place allows a person to minimise all of the choices or all of the decisions and the sort of range of extreme decisions that a persons mind is going to go through with regards to pregnancy in the workplace, that can only be a good thing because all of the other emotions, biological, chemical reactions are happening within the body are going to do what they do anyway. So what can a workplace do to reduce that range of emotion or that range of choice that they have. And I guess looping to what I wanted to ask you next is, your chapter, I like, your essay, sorry, every subheading is called leading, like it starts with leading, leading, leading. And what it made me think about was, it’s to the point that I’m making about how to reduce the workplace control over a person’s pregnancy, it read to me a bit like project management. And so what are some of the ways that project management can be run or can be done within an organisation? So if you think about like leading healthily, a healthy mind is good for everybody, including those who are pregnant. If we think about leading steadily, a steady approach, incremental approach is good for the organisation, as well as those within the organisation as well as those that are pregnant with the organisation. Leading immensely stable lifestyle. Same thing again. So what I like how it felt was that it was desexing the pregnancy to only women or only those who can get pregnant. It was desexing it to like, here’s an issue that only happens to some of you, so some of you need to deal with that issue and it really brought it to here is an organisational approach that we can take to those within our community who may get pregnant, may choose to have families. What does this look like for how we as the unit can hold together for those of us within the unit who are going through a particular experience at the time? So I wonder what was, with the wondering, if the idea that you chose to do every subchapter as leading, I wonder what was going through your mind with regards to why that word for every incremental stage that you wrote about.

00:17:21:20 – 00:22:17:02
Nadine
Right. So you’re getting me to refresh my mind on the chapter itself. You know there’s being led, how are we leading ourselves, you know, in the process. And I think, you know, sometimes we can take or push the ownership of that on others rather than actually being, I am leading me, and I have power, I have autonomy over who I am and what I can do. In terms of leading, and both of you said, it’s all about the culture of the school and where you’re working and what is believed within the system that you’re working in. So I know for me personally, I’ve been very passionate about ensuring staff know they don’t need to be nervous and anxious to come and ask me to go to their child’s assembly or their child’s nativity. You know, why not? We are so much of ourselves within education, of our families, say, you know, to the parents, you know, come and watch your child come and do that. But yet we can’t do that for our own children. And that, to me, doesn’t make any sense. And I found the beginning of stepping into headship, leadership. I refuse to be the most outstanding head teacher or excellent leader in my head teacher space to then be a poor parent for my own children. To me, that doesn’t make sense. And I refuse to be that person who in 20 years looks back and thinks, I wish I did this for my children. I wish I, so again, I have no, I can understand if someone looks at their circumstances and decides, you know what? I’m going to take some time out of education. I’m going to take time out of the day to day teaching because I want a lot more time with my children. Yeah, that’s okay. No one should feel guilty of that because that’s just what works for them and that’s what feels right for them, and for others it may look a bit more like how I’ve done it, where I’ve just continued on my journey. But because I have, you know, I have a supportive network in a sense that I have my mum there who was a childminder for many years, and so having my kids, that’s work, that’s been fine. You know, I’ve got a husband who again, we’ve been able to balance out duties and responsibilities and so forth, and that’s just worked for us. But that doesn’t mean that that has to be the way of working for everybody else. You just need to know, okay, what is, what does the best form of parenting look like for me and then being, having the confidence to lead yourself towards that goal and establishing what that looks like for me or for you, or for them within the context that they find themselves within. But I think, I definitely think it boils down to culture, policy, systems, just how parenthood is celebrated. And as I said, it’s not just about the mother, it can be about the father as well. I’m glad that fathers do have that, you know, paternity leave and so forth, and can also balance that out. And decide who has the level of or the certain amount of time. I think that is so important. And fathers shouldn’t be afraid to say, I want to go to my child’s assembly or I want to, you know, I remember when I got my first headship, I actually spoke to my chair of governors and I said I would like to pick up my child one day a week because that was important to me, picking up my child from school was important to me, and I just wanted one day. And so I asked my chair of governors, I said, yes, I’ll accept this position. Yes, I’m more than happy to step into headship, but my one request is that I’m able to leave early and pick up my child once a week. And it was like, yeah, so that’s what I did. My first headship, you know, yeah, three years I did that because that moment for me for picking up my child was an important moment for me. But I didn’t want to look back on in years time and think, I wish, I’m so sorry I missed that.

00:22:18:13 – 00:23:55:23
Jess
I love that. I love that so much. And I’m going to sit with that for a bit longer. And what I loved was how you took the, you broke down the different bits of pregnancy and being a parent and often the same things that people would be like, oh, I can’t go into, I can’t go for that job because I’m not healthy enough, or I can’t go into that job because I’m not stable enough, because I’m thinking about my kids at home. The same things that, you know, I’ve been in conversations and people have used those same topics to be a reason to not lead. I love how you’ve kind of bridged it with your stories, and I would love to hear just a download from you, you’ve hinted, but I’d love to hear your hacks so your leadership career and how you kind of used, and I don’t know what it is, whether it’s your, just your personality, your optimism, your confidence to just ask those questions where others wouldn’t. But tell us some more stories about how you just like just said, oh, actually, I want to pick up my child one day a week or in the book you said, actually, I moved the governors’ meetings to 7 a.m. in the morning. Like these are things that people don’t think about. There’s so many hurdles where you think, oh, snap, I can’t go into headship because I want to pick up my kids. So they don’t think that there’s a compromise. So tell me a bit more about your creativity. You’ve got a whole paragraph on that, leading creatively. Tell me more about some funny, some nice stories along your career where you’ve been creative in bridging and bringing yourself as a parent to the workplace.

00:23:56:20 – 00:27:10:18
Nadine
So I think over time I’ve been fortunate to have been led by people who appreciate parenthood. And I think because of that exposure that has helped me to shape the person and suppose have the confidence that I have today. So one person I always mention in any conversations, Liz Robinson, because for me she has been a champion in my life, someone who I have really been inspired by. And I remember a photo, she still may have it on her Twitter handle, where she holds her baby and she’s breastfeeding her child, but she’s a headteacher, she’s a leader. She’s, I think, even a CEO now and so forth. And for me, just that photo was just really, really powerful. And in terms of other examples, I remember working, I was a class teacher, middle leader at the time and that headteacher said that anyone who has a child, they could go on a trip with their child once every academic year. So every single person was able to find a trip that their child was going on and take the day off paid to go and have that time with their child. So I that’s another beautiful example of how a school kind of set up its policy to really promote and celebrate being a parent and recognising the importance of having your, being there for your child’s special moment. In terms of, you know, with me coming back into headship, I was still expressing, I still wanted to make sure, you know, for me, I’m very passionate about breastfeeding. I wanted to make sure I did that for at least six months. But then I returned to work and I was still just pumping that milk. Still needed that. So it was about, I had to have those conversations within those return to work meetings. What’s going to support your return? And so part of me expressing this is what I want to be. I want to continue expressing. My office was changed. I was able to move my office to a different room which had a different type of door, which meant that no one could see in. And so actually it’s remained my office ever since to be fair, where I am now. And now I’ve got another person who’s returning back from maternity leave and I’ve been able to source a place in the school where they feel comfortable to express their milk, knowing that they will be undisturbed and creating those opportunities throughout the day for her to do that. It’s really important that school leaders listen to the needs of that individual, what they need and how best to support them or how what they feel you can do so that they feel best supported.

00:27:11:12 – 00:29:45:04
Mahlon
That’s a fantastic answer from two ends right. I want to talk about something you said before about when you were accepting the job, you accepted it with conditions that, it’s not even a condition, it’s almost like this is the expectation I want to start out in this job with, and I feel like that is an area that when we think about personal power or personal leadership and being able to say, yeah, I’ll take the job and I will do everything that’s required of me through the job description. But as an organisation here are the requirements that you need to meet for me to be a happy employee in this place. And I think that that very nicely brings us to what you’re saying about the culture of the place dictates how much it is willing to accommodate. And I even hate some of these words because it’s not an accommodation. It’s just, it’s the idea of do you want me in this community or not. It’s just making space for the community to be recognised as such. And so I think that that’s really maybe one thing to really hone in on the idea of as you are accepting leadership positions or any position from the outset, kind of getting clear about what’s going to need to work for me in order for me to be the best that I can be at work, but then also not minimise what I can be at home. And I think the other thing that you said as well, that’s also helpful is the idea of leadership. Any time that leadership has a sort of inkling of like what can we do to make the workplace more inclusive or more expansive, that leadership is on their back to make that decision happen. So it’s a nice thing to say, once an academic year anyone can go, I don’t want to hear any questions, I don’t want to hear any like, you don’t have to tell me why you’re going, where you’re going and what you’re doing. Just know that it’s yours to take is a nice tone to set for the organisation too. You don’t have to give me a whole report after the fact of what we did and how we spent that time and all that stuff, I trust you. I want you to do it because I know that’s beneficial for me as an organisation, for you to do that. So I guess with those two pieces, I guess what I would like to ask you kind of closing off the conversation perhaps is what other rallying calls that you may have for those who are pregnant, those who are going through parental leave or maternity leave? What are some of the things that you want them as individuals perhaps to know? What’s the rallying call for them and or what might be the rallying call for the organisations that have folk within them who can get pregnant, will get pregnant and will continue to have children?

00:29:46:01 – 00:35:20:18
Nadine
First things first is that being a parent, having children is, and does not need to be a stop marker. It doesn’t need to be a moment where everything has to pause in terms of, you know, before aspiring heads I founded a community interest company called, it was a project called I Am Here We See You. Now that whole idea happened and I built on that during one of my maternity leaves. And again with aspiring heads, I wrote the whole program for aspiring heads while I was nursing my newborn baby during the pandemic. Maternity leave for me has been a very, very powerful space to clear my mind in certain aspects, to actually have a new ness of creativity. And I’ve really, really been thankful for that because without that time, maybe aspiring heads now wouldn’t exist. So there’s a you know, there can be a reason for everything. But then also there is so much power in a maternity leave that someone can have. And you know, there is so much you can access as well whilst on maternity leave. And Emma Sheppard runs it [MTPT Project]. But you know, all these different organisations that are there to support parents and it’s just about us knowing it’s there and leaning into it. Just for some people switching off completely from anything educational, where again, it’s totally fine. You know, just finding yourself without the teacher hat on or the assistant head hat on, whatever, I think that’s really good as well. And in terms of organisations, I think this needs to be not judgmental. Stop being judgmental about people. Stop saying or believing that there’s only one way of doing things. There’s so many different ways of doing things. As long as you know it should be measured by the impact. What’s the impact? You know, because, you know, there are still positive outcomes. The children are still thriving, school is still progressing, and duties and responsibilities are still being fulfilled. So why are you so worried about the how they’re getting there? You know, can we not just allow people just to bring who they are into the space and bring their whole self into the space no matter, race, class, gender or whatever, you know, protected characteristic, you know, that should not be, there cannot be a one way fits all. We have to be comfortable with celebrating different ways of doing things. And I remember even coming here and another colleague I work with and they really just struggled to accept that a parent should go home early or that they should have certain days off work or they should be able to take a child here because in their view that’s not fair, because those who are not parents don’t get those opportunities, then they’re well, they’re not requesting those opportunities because they don’t feel the need for that. Maybe there’s something else, that they have a need for and maybe we need to take time to listen, because there maybe something else that’s not related to childcare, but it’s related to something else that is important to them, take time and listen and maybe something that they would maybe appreciate leaving a little bit early from work, but they may really appreciate taking the afternoon off because they really want to attend something that is very important to them. Yes, it may not be their child, but it may be something else. And why, why not open to open dialog with staff to find out what those things are because ultimately, when people are happy, when people feel supported, when people are thriving not just at work but outside of the workplace, they are bringing their best self. That’s what I want as a headteacher. I want my staff to be bringing their best self in front of those children. Because I know, I know that when they bring their best self in front of the children, the children going to get the best deal. Are the children getting what they need? And it’s not about, you know, focusing so heavily on, well, they left at 4:00. oh, no, that one tapped out at 6:00. Oh, that means they are working so much harder.

00:35:22:06 – 00:37:32:16
Mahlon
You know, this is it. This is why I wanted to just tie this up because there’s like a, there’s a nice bow and hard line Mahlon would say eyes on your own test paper. Right. There’s a way that like, what’s going on for you is not what’s going on for somebody else. And so there’s not a need to be worrying about somebody else’s paper and who’s missed the question and who does what. Just keep your eyes on your own test paper. That’s the hard line me. The other me says that like and this is more the compassionate community side of it when in a community people have different jobs, different functions, different contributions, it’s not about everyone’s contribution being equal in outputs, it’s about everyone’s contribution being equal to the whole being maintained or uplifted or progressing or whatever the case might be. And so to kind of assume that it’s zero sum, that if they get that, it’s because I don’t get and if I don’t get then no one else should get is really reductive and regressive to the aim of what is this whole community trying to achieve and the input that I’m able to do today might not be the input that I can do tomorrow. And so if I’m looking at it from a perspective of everything needs to be calculated and pitched and, you know, it would be, it doesn’t help people’s goodwill, it doesn’t help people’s sense of community and willingness to be part of it. And in the end, you just end up having lost and more loss and more loss and more loss because it’s a race to the bottom, but I really wanted to book end there what you just said, it’s like it’s really important. But, you know, whichever end of the spectrum, you’re happy to look at, whether it’s eyes on your own paper or we contribute different things to the community for the benefit of the community. That’s what it should be about. And so to be really aggrieved by those that can get pregnant and the paternity, maternity, parental leave of it all isn’t supportive of the community and is really reductive in thinking. So, yeah, just wanted to book end that.

00:37:32:24 – 00:42:22:03
Nadine
Yeah, and I just wanted to just add in terms of I feel sometimes people look at me and think, oh, you know, you’ve got it all together, you know, wow you know, you look super human, like you’re a head, you’ve got three kids, you’ve been doing this and doing that and so forth. But actually it’s hard. It can be challenging. You know, it’s not all rosy. And I really want people to know I’m human. I’m human, too. And sometimes there are seasons when I have to review and think, is this working? Because in terms of teaching, depending on where your school, what stage of school is in, there can be very, very busy periods of time that actually your systems and your organisational plans may fall through or it may be that thing you wanted to attend or had your eye on to attend for your child you just couldn’t because that safeguarding thing came up and so forth. Those things can happen, but it’s always, I think, taking those moments to review and think, okay, what’s working. And so I remember I had a busy period and i thought I’m not where I would want to be or where I’m usually comfortable with being in terms of my parenting. So I had to take stock and I had to review and okay, what can I do differently? So now I’m actually much more intentional with my half terms and summer holidays. I don’t leave them just to come. I’m thinking about, okay, what am I going to be planning for me and my family? How am I going to ensure that I switch off from all work related things? So I give them 100% time because I understand, you know, I’m leaving the house at seven., getting home at seven, I’m cooking and then it’s kind of like to bed and so forth. And it feels, you know, I’m not giving them as much as I want to at this stage, but okay, how can I compensate for that? How can I make the most of the half terms and the summer holidays and so forth? So I’ve had to adjust, you know, whereas I was that teacher and for me at that time it was, I could leave at four, but I spend quality time with my children and then picking up work after. I am now in a season where my days are pretty long. But yes, you know, I’m making the best of my holidays and so forth with my children. And I’m still not being afraid to, when I do get home, so my phone, I’ve taken emails off my phone because what I found at home, something will pop up and I’m looking to see the first line. And I’m like, okay, I open it and then I you just go down, it’s downward spiral. So now actually this academic year, this is quite a new thing for me. I’ve taken emails off my phone, so when I leave this building, I’m not going to see anything unless I’ve intentionally taken my laptop because I want to work. And I just feel if it’s that urgent, someone’s going to get, they would get hold of me if it’s that urgent. So yes I’m leaving later in this season. I’m getting home later in this season, but when I get home, I’m switched off. And so that’s what’s working for me in this season. So I yeah, I just wanted to make it clear to listeners that don’t think that everyone’s always got it all together. There’s always different types of seasons and there’s different ways of doing things, you know, and ultimately it’s just about us knowing what is and what we feel is right for ourselves and our children. I even asked my children about my parenting and I asked them for feedback. How do you think mum’s doing? Is there anything you want mum to think about and so I’m allowing them to have a voice and to have a say and I’m listening. And then that’s helping me in my constant reviewing process of being the best leader I can be to my community, being the best CEO, fighting for social, for equality and so forth, and also being the best wife I can be and being the best mother I can be. And also I do a lot of serving and doing a lot of stuff within my church as well, you know, supporting married couples and so forth. So, you know, my passion lies in a lot of things. It’s about me. Yeah, just deciding what is the best fit for this season and time in order to drive the change that I, I am passionate, passionate about contributing to.

00:42:23:20 – 00:42:39:19
Jess
And love it and building on that thank you so much for your contribution to the book and to this conversation and just being a part of this community and being you. It’s really, it’s a light. It’s a massive light. And yeah, we appreciate you. Thank you for sharing with us today.

00:42:40:01 – 00:42:42:14
Nadine
Thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure meeting you both.

00:42:44:03 – 00:42:51:23
Mahlon
And again, thank you so much, Nadine. With that I would like to close by saying that we’ve been Mahlon Evans-Sinclair and Jess Boyd.

00:42:54:24 – 00:43:09:14
Hannah
[Outro Music] Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Diverse Ed Podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think, so do leave us a review. We’ll be back soon with another author from our book, Diverse Educators: A Manifesto.