[Outro Music]

00:08:11 – 01:02:25
Hannah Wilson
Welcome to the #DiverseEd podcast. Diverse Educators is an intersectional community of educators who are passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion. Our vision: everyone is celebrated in every classroom in every school. Our mission: a collaborative community that celebrates the successes and amplifies and stories of diverse people. Our values: promoting acceptance, increasing visibility, encouraging celebration, creating belonging and enabling learning. In series one of the #DiverseEd podcast. We have ten episodes. In each episode, our co-hosts Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi will interview one contributor from each of the ten chapters of Diverse Educators: A Manifesto. Each conversation will reflect on how they have found and used their voice, discuss how identity shapes them as an educator, show the challenges they’ve had to navigate on their journey, and identify the changes they would like to see in the school system.

01:05:06 – 01:18:01
Nick
Okay. Hello everyone and welcome to the #DiverseEd Podcast. My name is Nick Kitchener-Bentley and I am a lead practitioner and drama / inclusion teacher at Sarah Bonnell School. I am also on the steering group for LGBTed.

01:18:15 – 01:29:12
Yamina
And I’m Yamina Bibi and I’m an assistant head teacher also at Sarah Bonnell school. I’m also a network leader for WomenEd in London. In this episode, we’ll be talking to Cleo from the Pregnancy and Maternity chapter.

01:30:02 – 01:41:19
Nick
Okay. So Cleo, one of the things that we like to do at the start is just get people to introduce themselves to the audience in one sentence. So could we ask you to do that, Cleo? Just let us know who you are in one sentence please.

01:42:11 – 01:48:11
Cleo
Sure. I’m Cleo de Jong. I am soon to be a deputy headteacher in North London and a mum of two.

01:49:02 – 01:56:20
Yamina
Amazing. Congratulations, by the way. What inspired you to write your contribution to Diverse Educators: A Manifesto, Cleo?

01:57:21 – 02:31:09
Cleo
I think it is two things. Firstly, the trauma, which I think it was of having my first child and parachuting back into a leadership role and then having my second child and really having the space and time to appreciate the impact of having a network to support you. So I really took advantage of kind of being on Twitter and making connections in that way. And so just wanted to publicise how important that network is and just reach out so that more people have access.

02:31:28 – 02:47:28
Nick
Thanks for that, Cleo. I completely echo with what you’re saying about the idea of a network I think it’s really important, isn’t it and it can do so much when you have that and thinking about what other people think as well. We were really interested, if you could maybe tell us about some of the different themes that your whole chapter team were interested in exploring.

02:48:25 – 03:44:08
Cleo
So I think most generally it’s that flexibility element of teaching. Just trying to explore why it’s not more standard practice in schools. And then secondly, I think is just the visibility of parent teachers, people really celebrating and showcasing that it is possible. It’s hard. There’s no denying that. But I think so many teachers work in schools where you’re not quite sure who the parents are, or people might downplay it for fear that they don’t want you to think that something’s being compromised, because that’s sometimes the assumption that can be made. If someone says their mum. And so I think there are lots of elements of that throughout the chapter of just saying, you know, not only am I a parent and a leader, but it’s something everyone else can look up to and do as well.

03:45:10 – 03:54:12
Yamina
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that and building on that. What would you say are the key challenges for people with this protected characteristic that your team really wanted to address?

03:55:09 – 05:39:02
Cleo
I think it’s the flexibility and sometimes I feel bad thinking that, you know, it’s only parents that should get that flexibility because it isn’t. There are lots of people who might be carers. I spoke to an ex-colleague just last week, he has been given flexibility so she can attend a yoga class on a Friday morning. And it doesn’t impact her lessons, she’s not a parent, but it has an enormous impact on her wellbeing and working in this really talented school. And so I think that that is a massive takeaway is not only that the flexibility be written into the policies within the school, but that it is readily celebrated and advertised to the people that work there so that they don’t feel bad asking for it. But it’s a standard practice and it’s something that’s promoted and shared with your line manager. When you’re having those line manager meetings, it’s just a given that someone will say to you, this is how our school works. And if that’s something that would help your life to run more smoothly, then please do take advantage of it. And it kind of touches as well upon the fact that, you know, the COVID pandemic allowed us to see that there are other ways of working. And so we should be embracing those. And there’s no reason to think right now. We’re back at school. We kind of get caught up in the presenteeism, which is spoken about quite a lot in the chapter. And the idea that you always have to just be seen. And we know that there are lots of staff who work from the moment school opens, the moment school closes, but aren’t particularly effective in what they do. And so it’s the idea that there are also going to be some staff who don’t need to be onsite at all times that can still deliver really well in their roles.

05:39:22 – 07:02:18
Nick
I really like what you were saying there about making sure that it’s standard practice for everybody and the fact that everyone really benefits from it. And you’re absolutely right, because I think, you know, everybody in education will benefit from some of the flexible approaches that you’re talking about and the idea of flexibility being really, really important. And everybody in school being aware of them. So I think that’s really helpful. I just wanted to thank you for saying that. I wanted to read out some of your key takeaways for the reader that you included at the end of your chapter. Yamina and I found these to be really interesting and I’m sure that everybody listening would really resonate with them. But I just wanted to read them out and then ask you to maybe tell us a little bit why they’re so important to you. And so you write that the importance of support and care starts before someone is pregnant. Ensure the work environment is conducive to facilitate a mentally healthy and well-balanced lifestyle. Becoming a new parent involves a period of adjustment. Recognise this and give colleagues time and flexibility to accommodate their new personal role into their already established professional role. Encourage staff to consider how a flexible work arrangement may benefit them so that it is something that is celebrated and not seen as a minimisation of their role. I mean, that’s so important isn’t it. It’s absolutely essential. I was just wondering if you wouldn’t mind expanding a little bit on those takeaways and telling us a little bit more about why they’re so important to you.

07:03:14 – 12:49:05
Cleo
Sure. So I think if I start with the first one, just in terms of the importance of that support and care, and I speak about it in my chapter, just kind of my fertility journey and the challenges that I went through. When I think about my time at that school, at no point was any information given to me really about what could be offered from the school. I don’t know about you guys, but, you know, I don’t spend the first couple of weeks I join a school going through every policy on the website. So I don’t know how many teachers do. So, to assume that staff will know that something exists because it’s in a policy I don’t think is good enough. These characteristics are protected for a reason, right? It’s because people from these groups are discriminated against. And so I think the school has a duty to address them explicitly and directly with staff, to say that this is how we as a school will support you if you belong to this group and so if you belong to the group. You’re considering going for fertility treatment, you’re considering adoption. Any of these things wrapped up in parenting, I think the school has a duty to all staff to say, here are the very specific ways that we are very, very happy to support you on that journey. It shouldn’t be down to staff to kind of think, oh, I wonder if they’ll let me have a bit of time in the morning to drop my child off for settling in, or will they allow me some time off to go and get my fertility injections or, you know, because that creates its own anxiety. And like you said before, you don’t want an anxious teacher in the classroom so it will benefit your staff if they can be reassured from the get go that this is something that you will support them with instead of, you know, feeling distracted by these thoughts that are going to be running around in their heads regardless of whether you bring them up or not. So, we just have a duty of care as leaders to provide that reassurance and then I think the second key takeaway that you spoke about just in terms of the shock, I think it is of becoming a new parent. For me, anyway, it was a real shock. I’d, up until that point, been a real stereotypical person in my twenties like loving life driving down to Soho just to get to get desert 10:00 at night just ridiculous things you can do when you’re just carefree. Without a care in the world and I’d just also come back from living in Thailand. So that kind of amplified that kind of life even more. We were like jumping on speedboats to get cocktails at the weekend, and it was just ridiculous. And then I got back and within about three or four months of coming back home. I had the baby and I was like, oh my goodness, this is absolutely crazy. I’ve got this person that is literally relying on me to stay alive. And in my head I thought beforehand that, oh, I was like, I was like a hardcore raver. I could stay up all night. Having a baby, that’s light work for me. I know what that was like I used to go straight from the club and go to work at my part time role at JDs when I was 19. I can do that. Have a baby and you’re like, oh my god, this isn’t the same, this isn’t the same. And so, you’re kind of coming to terms with that realisation. Well, I was. And then ten months into it, I started a new role at a new school, a new position, you know, part of SLT, I was still breastfeeding as well at the time. So it was just a lot of things that I was trying to manage, you know, trying to juggle in my head. And like I said, because at that time, no one had explicitly said, like they knew I was a mum, had said, right, we know you’re a mum. Here’s all the stuff that we do to look after you. Here’s all the stuff that we will provide. Here are all the ways we can support you. So please don’t hesitate to ask, you know, because these are the things that we are more than happy to do. No one’s going to judge you for asking for somewhere to go and express or the saying that you need to come in slightly later for a couple of days or weeks because your child isn’t settling well. You know, there are so many things. And so I think it’s that appreciation of what that transition from, from not being a parent to being a parent is actually like. And I think there are lots of people who probably, I’m sure, will handle that transition much better than I did. But then there are those people who are very similar to me who are kind of at the pinnacle of hedonism or whatever it is. And just crashed, crashed into the reality of thinking, whoa, whoa, I have to pick someone up at definite time or someone calls me or they charge me or what, you know. There’s a lot there’s a lot to manage. And there’s not necessarily a guide for that. And there are lots of books you can read, but I think before this book, before Diverse Ed: A Manifesto, there wasn’t necessarily a book for educators to say, here’s how you… You know, there’s sleep training books, there’s weaning books. But the bit that says, we recognise that you’re an educator, we recognise that you’re a leader and here are ways that you can maybe frame a conversation with your line manager or here are things that other people in your position have been able to take advantage of or benefit from. That you may feel helpful support with, you know.

12:49:05 – 13:10:04
Yamina
I found all of that hilarious, but also very accurate. I think of all the parents I talked to. I just want to ask a follow up question on what you said, Cleo, you talked about the school having a duty of care towards parents and all staff. How do you think effective induction processes could incorporate and support parent teachers who are perhaps new to the school and to the system?

13:11:03 – 15:01:03
Cleo
I think, and again, I think it’s kind of all the protected characteristics, isn’t it? I think we fill that form in at the back of the application form, the school has this information. Right. And, and like I said, my school anyway certainly has the information about which teachers are parents. And so it could just be like, you know, we have carousels on Inset Day sometimes. And one of those carousels could be dedicated to protected characteristics. And so if you feel that you belong to one of these protected characteristics, go to this room and you will learn all the ways that our school supports that characteristic and so, for me, pregnancy and maternity, I would go there and they could tell me, we give you sports day off, we give you a room if you need this. If you’re trying to conceive, we are happy for you to take mornings off to go for your injections. It could just be that and then it’s bespoke isn’t it? It means that someone who isn’t interested in that chaos doesn’t go to that room and they perhaps go to the room in which you find out how the school supports people from the LGBTQ+ community. And it could be we, we celebrate pride day, we take our children on a march, you can get involved in that, we ensure that any homophobic bullying is zero tolerance and you know, we deal with it quite fiercely and our sanctions are severe, you know, and so that then allows that person from day one to think, yeah, I feel like I can work here. I feel like this is somewhere that sees me and is actually making the necessary adjustments to make sure I feel comfortable in this place. And so and by me feeling comfortable, by me feeling that I belong here, you will no doubt thrive and show up as your best self, you know, because you think, well, actually, these are people that appreciate what it means to be me. And so I’m going to give back as much as I can as well just to say thank you.

15:01:24 – 15:05:21
Yamina
I love that idea. I don’t know about you Nick but it definitely got my mind swirling.

15:07:17 – 15:27:02
Nick
Absolutely. Like how important to be able to hear all the things that would be helpful for you as an educator and that are going to be beneficial to you. I’m sure those kind of conversations happening right at the start are going to, yeah, it will be so useful for different people. So yeah, thanks for sharing that and I’m sure everyone is listening will take note because it’s a really great idea.

15:27:13 – 15:44:25
Yamina
Really great idea. Thank you for that, Cleo. So your manifesto commitment is to provide parent teachers with a framework for requesting support which is fully celebrated with the ethos and culture of the school before and throughout the parenting journey begins. Can you tell us more about it and how you want to galvanise action from your readers and listeners?

15:46:08 – 18:57:10
Cleo
So I think, like I said before, you know, I think it goes beyond just having a maternity and pregnancy policy that’s, you know, maybe 30 pages long that you can’t be sure that staff are engaging with. And I think someone touched upon it in one of the sections of this chapter where you just have like a checklist. And so if the person that you’re line managing informs you that they’re going through, you know, that pregnancy journey, you have some key things that you would just go through with them just to say, like, do you know about this? Do you know about this? Do you need help with this, here is something that I found helpful. I think also is that celebration of it so that everyone knows. I think sometimes, like I said before, there is the idea that you can’t balance them both and you can’t do your job effectively if you’re thinking about, you know, school pick ups and childcare costs and, you know, you’ve got packed lunches, you can’t, and actually of course you can. And if anything, you can probably do it better than you were doing it before. You know because you’ve developed some new skills. You’ve had to, you’ve had to develop some new skills to navigate life. And it would be impossible for you not to transfer those skills. I know certainly for me, becoming a mother has made me a far more empathetic teacher. And so before I kind of just bulldozed my way through school, getting stuff done, you know, I’ve got to get these kids their grades and I’ve got to make sure, it’s their right to get these things. And now I am far more patient. And where I am able to, have the time to really speak to students on a 1 to 1 and appreciate them as individuals and appreciate them as someone’s child, which I never, I think, fully appreciated before. In all of my parent meetings now that I have are focused on the parent, you know, I start with how dare you let your mum come here and feel sad? How does your mum feel, you know. Whereas previously I’d be there like how have you raised a kid that does this, you know. Just sworn at a member of my staff, you know, and it and so in those ways is has massively, positively improved my practice and I think that has to be celebrated. And I think if we have more leaders who are confident and have the space to stand up in front of the school and say, these are the ways in which my practice has massively improved since becoming a parent, I think you will have more staff who are worried or apprehensive about the disadvantages, because everyone knows those right? Everyone knows how expensive it is to put your child in nursery, how little sleep you’re going to have, how little control you have over a toddler who’s running around trying to kill themselves, essentially. Right. But it’s about really advertising as well, that there’s loads of really, really cool aspects that enhance who you can be as a teacher and as a leader. And so you just have that forum and space to inform everyone else and then in some way hopefully inspire them if it’s something that they’re unsure about.

18:58:13 – 20:00:21
Nick
You absolutely are inspirational. It’s so good to talk to you. You are, you’re amazing. And the passion that you’re talking with is just so, so great to hear. And I know that so many people who are listening will take a lot from it. So thank you so much for that. And I suppose this is a link point to some of what you’re saying there, you’re speaking about empathy and how important that is. And you were also talking about the fact that there are many positive skills that are being kind of brought through people being parents and carers and that’s really, really essential isn’t it. And we noticed that in your chat to Cleo one of the questions that you asked was really, really important. You asked the question, how is empathy celebrated? And I thought that was such a good question. I think the idea of actually celebrating empathy and making it an important part of what goes on in a school is just so, so important. So I was wondering if you could maybe expand a little bit upon that in terms of thinking about what it means. Could you maybe tell us about what empathy looks like in education settings and why you think it needs to be celebrated?

20:00:21 – 25:18:27
Cleo
So I think and I like I say, I learned this early on in my parenting journey and actually a little bit before. So, I spoke before about the fact that I lived in Thailand for a while. And when we were in Thailand, part of our induction in that school was that they put us all into minibus and we lived in the the sex capital of Southeast Asia. And so they put us into this minibus and drove us around so we could see where a lot of our students were coming from. And whilst it was a independent school, so it meant that lots of our students, their parents actually owned a lot of these bars and clubs. It was not that they were working in them, but some of them, sadly, that’s how, you know, their parents had met. So their mums had started life in some of those bars. But it completely gives you a, a different appreciation for the children that you have in front of you and so when I came, when I joined my last school, it was something that I did. I put all the teachers in a minibus and I drove them round to some of these estates that our children had come from because, it’s really weird even saying it. But in the schools that I worked in there have been very few people who are even from London, let alone from the local area where my schools have been. And so if you are coming from Surrey or Hampshire or Hull or somewhere else, you maybe do not have a clear concept of what it’s like to grow up in a in an inner-city estate in London. And what that looks like, like what, how is that manifested, how is that real for our children? What does that mean for them when they’re kind of stepping over needles or when there’s a high police presence or when the only shops that they can quickly get to, unfortunately, don’t serve fresh food. They are the corner shop that sells alcohol and sweets and the chicken shop and the betting shop, you know, that’s what their local council have decided that community needs and so I don’t want you in a meeting as staff making, you know, inappropriate comments or making inappropriate judgments on children if you’re not aware of the circumstances. And yet I’m aware that my responsibility as a leader is to make you aware of the circumstances so that you can develop that empathy. Otherwise, how could you know, how could you possibly know what life is like for some of these children and why we must have patience with them. If you were coming from that situation, perhaps you might swear at me if I asked you something ridiculous that was the least of your worries today. If you’ve got a mum who has been suffering from long term mental health issues and she’s locked herself in a room for the last two days over the weekend. And your teachers ask, why don’t you have a pen? Of course, you know. Even the calmest of adults would be affronted by something like that. You speak to staff sometimes in the morning. You’ve had to sit in traffic jams on the M1. You come in grumpy and I think sometimes as adults we find it so much easier to have patience and empathy for our colleagues and then for kids you know, they’re not finished. Our patience is sometimes very short and we think oh they should just know. How on earth would they know. And again, I’ve gone on a tangent there, but in relation to being a new mum like how do we know as new mums, how would I know, how would I know that this is something that I should ask for and not feel bad about because I missed it and there will be so many mums who’ve missed like really key important parts of their child’s development because they just didn’t know it was something they could ask for, they didn’t know it was something they were entitled to. The number of mums I’ve spoken to even recently who didn’t even know what kit days were and didn’t know what they were about. And I wasn’t fortunate enough to have them the first time round because I’ve just come back from living abroad. So the second time you can believe I took all ten. They were the best thing ever. And I really looked forward to them and I used them to teach some classes that I hadn’t met, you know, they were brilliant. I was like, when I found out, ten days, yeah I’ll spread those out, I’ll do one a week. It was a really nice way to keep in touch, but like I say, you don’t know what you don’t know. Staff need to, again, we trained on that and once I think people do know once leaders do know this is what people are going through and this is a situation, how can we show them care and compassion and most of the time they do. And that’s why I think this book is amazing because it is providing that knowledge, isn’t it? It’s providing that lack of excuse now to say, oh, I didn’t know that people thought this. You know, it’s like, come on, read, you know, once you’ve read, act, it’s looking at these avenues to help people develop empathy and not just assume that they will just have it.

25:20:07 – 25:49:21
Yamina
Yes. Thank you so much. So brilliant. I could listen to you Cleo all day. So what you said in the chapter about how you you know, you as somebody who embraced the trope of being the strong, limitless woman. And so the idea of the change that came with your circumstances required essentially a change in operation that wasn’t something that you were comfortable with or sat well with you. What advice do you then have for those colleagues who might be in the same circumstances? And how did you become more comfortable with your changing circumstances?

25:51:08 – 28:39:22
Cleo
I think it is about reevaluating the idea of strength. And I think you grow up, particularly if you’re from, I think, ethnic backgrounds where you can’t show your vulnerability and you just get on with it. Like no matter what happens, you’re always kind of told, just get on with it. And we would have had parents. This probably could be small things. like oh Mum I’ve got a tummy ache, you’re just told have some water and go to sleep because your just supposed to get on with it, aren’t you? And so I think my idea of what strength is just really changed because I thought actually no, I need to have the strength to say this isn’t okay. And my strength now is having the confidence to speak up and say, this isn’t okay. This is what I need to ensure that I can do my job effectively. I know what doing my job effectively is like. I know what it means when I’m able to perform at the highest level. And I can’t do it in these conditions, but I want to do it, right. And so as a parent, if I am, and I’m going to be doing this in a couple of weeks because my second child will be starting nursery in September. But if I have to drop her off at nursery, she’s screaming and I’m having to think in my head. I’ve got to get to school. I’ve got to be there for duty at 825 and I’m trying to slam the door of the nursery and run back in my car. And I’m upset. I’m stressed that, you know, no one is happy. No one’s going to be working well then. And so now my strength is being able to say, right, well, I need to speak to my head teacher and say my my two year old is starting nursery. I don’t know what it’s going to be like. And so, what adjustments can be made for me to ensure that when I show up for school, I can show up for me because I want to, I want to show up, I’m new to your school. I want everyone to think, oh, Cleo is impressive, not look at me and think, Oh, why does Cleo look like she’s about to cry? Or why does Cleo look stressed and distracted? Because I’m thinking about my two year old feeling abandoned. And so it works for everyone, doesn’t it? And and again, it’s knowing that that is strength. That is me showing up for myself, isn’t it. And not just thinking oh, it’s just something we have to get on with, you know, no I want to be able to do my job well and I want to be able to do both of my jobs well, which is, you know, leading in a school. But also being someone’s mum, I need to make sure that I’m performing highly at that level, too, and making sure that neither thing gets compromised as much as possible.

28:40:28 – 29:09:04
Nick
I love that description of it. It’s almost like you’ve redefined what strength is. You’ve redefined strength on your own terms to balance it in terms of what it means for you as a parent and as a leader as well in the school. And I just yeah, I just love hearing that. So thank you for that. We wanted to kind of broaden things out a little bit as well in terms of our discussion. In an ideal world, what kind of changes would you like to see happen in the school system regarding the protected characteristic of pregnancy and maternity?

29:10:11 – 32:41:10
Cleo
I think it’s spoken about throughout the chapter, but I think the main thing is just this presenteeism. Just knowing that staff deserve and should be entitled to and should not feel bad about having flexible hours because almost all staff are committed. You know, you don’t go through the process of writing these lengthy personal statements, and particularly at a leadership level, going through two days of interviews and panels and presentations. No one is going to go through that to then not perform at their best. And if someone has gone through that, has been successful, wants to do their very best, I think the least that the school can do is offer them the flexibility where they need it and trust that they will perform their job well, that they’re not requesting this flexibility to get out of doing the work. They’re actually requesting it so they can do the work better, right? So that they can feel fully committed and fully aware and fully alert to the various pulls and tugs on their demands and attribute their time accordingly. I think that is the biggest thing, that should be and I don’t want to say it should be a selling point because then it’s like it’s a USP for different schools and it shouldn’t be it should just be the standard practice that everyone just gets comfortable knowing is available. And even I’ve been fortunate enough that my last school had it and my current school I’m going to, you know, one of the things the head teacher said was, you know, I’m very aware that we spend a lot of time trying to help people raise their children, but lots of us have our own children to raise. And that’s a lovely thing for your head teacher to say the first time I met her and, you know, my husband, his school, he works part time and at no point has he been judged for making that decision. He’s allowed to do it. He’s still been offered TLR opportunities. No one said, you know, you can’t go for this extra opportunity because you’re only here four days a week. And yet he’s honestly, I think he’s one of those role models for working part time because he makes sure on that day he is off, he is off and he dedicates that time to our two year old and they do like really cool stuff and it’s so lovely that I get to then go through my day and I’ll see pictures of them at the park and at soft play and you know, and I know so many parents who do work part time and then spend that day marking or spend that day planning for the following day. And I’m like, you need to speak to my husband. He’ll teach you. That school’s a kind of like, you know, I will give you these part time hours to help you with your workload, and then staff feel like, oh, maybe that’s what I do in that part time. I catch up on the workload and it’s like, well, no, that’s not what I wanted it for. I wanted it so that I can have that dedicated time to my child so that when I then turn up to school, I can dedicate my time to my role and I don’t need to feel bad. That either thing has been compromised. So I think it’s that standard practice and trust that flexible working is important and that if anything, it will really amplify the work that people are able to do for your school.

32:42:21 – 32:55:06
Yamina
That’s brilliant. Thank you so much. That was so diverse in what you were saying as well, I think. But it we were to broaden it out even more, Nick and I were wondering, in an ideal world, what changes would you like to see happen in wider society then?

32:57:02 – 36:47:09
Cleo
Wow, gosh, you look at the stats in this chapter about, you know, all the women dropping out of education, of teaching in between 30 and 39 a bracket that unfortunately I’m not in anymore, two years shy . I know. But you just think in wider society is that perception of mothers and the responsibility that is assumed that we should take on. And I still kind of, I had like my dad staying with me the last couple of months and I’ll say to my dad, I’m going out for a meal and he’ll say, Oh, what’s happening with the kids? What? they’re dad’s here. What do you mean?. I don’t know what’ happening with them. I’m off. And I know like, you know, it’s my dad is, he’s in his 60s. But there are people who are much younger who still just have that assumption that it’s the mum that has to figure everything out and juggle everything and worry about oh they’re with their dad. Are they going to be fed lunch or is he going to remember that she needs this? No, he’s their dad. If he doesn’t remember, he should feel bad that he didn’t remember. It’s not my responsibility to remind another fully grown adult who is equally responsible for these children of the things that they’re supposed to do. And I think as a wider society, we’ve still got so much way to go with that, with people like I saw people who are really even shocked that my kids are equally excited when their dad turns up as they are when I turn up because they’re so conditioned to thinking that kids always will be with their mums. Oh, mums here. But they say where’s daddy? I want daddy. Awesome. Balance those requirements out? You’ve fallen down, sometimes dad can find your plaster too. And so it is a wider societal issue of that responsibility that mums specifically have and people are so comfortable with them having it. And I think from the beginning I have, I’ve just been uncomfortable with it and I’m fortunate to be in a marriage in which my husband is also, you know, very willing to share it and he wants to share it and he thinks it’s right that he shares it. And he knows that, you know, they’re not more my kids than they are his I will call the trump card, sometimes. I carried them in my stomach. That’s why I deserve to go out more evenings than you. But they are both of ours and so everything should just be equal, I shouldn’t just be the one worrying about childcare. He has to worry about childcare. And so it’s just there’s still, I think, a long way to go. But I think as more parents get in positions of leadership and what leadership looks like, when you look at those stats that so many women make up the core body of teaching and so few of them then make it into headteacher positions or even to senior leadership positions. And then of those, how many of those are going to be parents? Because I didn’t meet any women who were parents until quite late, you know, in the 17 years that I’ve been teaching so far, but until that starts to change and like I say, until that starts to be celebrated and people start to see, oh, wow. Okay, yeah, maybe, maybe her husband’s at home. That’s the thing now isn’t it? Yeah. Moving on. I think that’s the biggest move that we need to make.

36:48:13 – 37:15:17
Nick
Thank you so much, Cleo. You are absolutely brilliant and it’s so good hearing you and not just like your energy and your enthusiasm, but the points you’re making are just essential and really going to resonate with people. So thank you very much. And we just wanted to say kind of at the end, like a massive thank you for joining us today as well, because you’ve given us a lot to think about, loads of amazing ideas and you’ve just really boosted our energy. It’s been amazing. And yeah, you did a really good job. Thank you.

37:16:09 – 37:26:18
Yamina
Thank you so much, Cleo, we’ve loved having you. We’ve been to Nick Kitchener-Bentley and Yamina Bibi, the co-hosts of the #DiverseEd podcast

[Outro Music]

37:26:18 – 37:43:01
Hannah Wilson
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the #DiverseEd Podcast. Check out the show notes for the recommendations of today’s guest. We’d love to hear what you think so do leave us a review. We’ll be back soon with another author from our book – Diverse Educators: A Manifesto.